Rule Test Tournament #2

Your forum to discuss the fourth generation of Top Spin.

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Postby jayl0ve » Sun, 22 May 2011 01:09

Crotatsuya wrote:With all your testing you might have noticed, that with the exception of PJQ there is no coach that is imbalanced or overpowered (I actually grew to hate that word).

Why does that fool think so you might ask? Well here I go:

A character with hig FH and BH stats usually is slow or powerless, which renders him pretty much useless. Drew Welch might be the example here, you can have 100 in FH or BH and the opponent will still be able to usually outplay you unless you are very very good and place the shots well, due to the simple lack of power. I feel, that if a character has less than 65 power you can hardly pressure the opponent enough to dominate the game, if the opponent is of equal skill of course.

Next are the power players, that are usually slow and without reflexes, which makes them kind of useless unless they benefit from the online lag, which is kind of annoying but still... What has a Power player left when you strip him off...power? Thats right.

As it is, each setup has its downsides, am I the only one that sees it?
You talk about variation and balance, but you intentionally or not take whole playstyles out of the game and everyone will more or less play the same, with the good players still on top, just with "castrated" skills.



Strip a defensive baseline player off those high stats in FH/BH, and what you'll get is a powerless guy with an additional weak side.
You completely erase the possibillity of an effective defensive baseliner with that idea, its simply out of line with the way the game works technically. And thats just one example.

I could go on with other examples if you want me to, but you should deeply consider if that is what balance is all about.


I totally 1000% agree, I've been saying this for a long time, especially the last two sentences.

Also if you get rid of one setup...what if that setup was the PERFECT counter to some other very powerful set up?? And now it's gone, giving this previously 'non-overpowered' setup free reign to dominate all other setups without challenge.
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Postby Rob ITST » Sun, 22 May 2011 01:10

jayl0ve wrote:Just play 2K open guys...nothing but fun and no worries about 'overpowered' characters.


That's how I've started to feel. I use Sampras and Federer mostly, and I win/lose against all other characters. The only Pro I have any problem with as far as being "unbalanced" is Serena - and only because her screams make it harder to tell how hard the ball is being hit.
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Postby Crotatsuya » Sun, 22 May 2011 02:05

@Djarvik: We might as well discuss it via pm, since I fear our opinions differ a lot. You might start by answering these points:

-where do you think I am wrong concerning defensive baseliners and their reliance on strong fh/bh, and offensive power players and their reliance on....well...power?

-in what way do you think matches will improve if each and every player has a weak side (69 isn't solid, its below average). If anything, matches will become more predictable. Also: aren't rallies long enough yet? Maybe it's my lack of skill, but some rallies last forever even without a weaker side.

-other stuff you deem important that I forgot to mention.

I wouldn't even care if these rules are made for a sim tour, but rules like this in a regular tour would piss a lot of people off I'm sure.

It's kind of unfortunate that you don't play on the PS3, but I guess I understand the game mechanics well enough to state my opinion, whether you agree or not is another thing.
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Postby jayl0ve » Sun, 22 May 2011 02:43

Rob ITST wrote:
jayl0ve wrote:Just play 2K open guys...nothing but fun and no worries about 'overpowered' characters.


That's how I've started to feel. I use Sampras and Federer mostly, and I win/lose against all other characters. The only Pro I have any problem with as far as being "unbalanced" is Serena - and only because her screams make it harder to tell how hard the ball is being hit.


Not to mention she hits it harder than the men :lol:

Obviously not all the pro characters are created entirely equal, but 1) That's how it is in real life and 2) Fighting game fans have been fine with this 'tier' setup for 20 years now....for example everybody knows that as far as the 'charge' characters in SF go, Guile is just flat-out better than E. Honda in the right hands...however for some people the lower-tier characters just 'click' with them much better and they're able to compete with and even destroy players using high-tier characters. That's how it is in 2K open in my opinion
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Postby MrMackNasty » Sun, 22 May 2011 03:03

how big a difference is 81 stamina to 71 stamina? Does it make a huge difference?
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Postby Dynushi » Sun, 22 May 2011 06:11

i just don't understand anyone that is actually pissed off by rules made for a test tournament without having played a single match.

It just feels like the same ppl that constantly say "stop whining" when someone is pissed off by their very very balanced(lol) ti/md-iwillpwnphysicswithmypewpewtopspins-setup now start to whine themselves when their toy could be taken away.

having a 85 in fh/bh is nowhere near balanced by any means...specially when added to strong power and solid speed rating.

of course, having 73/76 fh/bh is kinda normal as well, but that got to be tested, thats what such tournaments are for.

I highly appreciate the work of tournament hosts, trying to get a balanced environment that fits every playstyle, so ofb,dfb,s&v and allaround can survive.

For me its not a big issue, as i already play with players that accidently meet all requirements needed.

And yeah, of course i'm a lousy player and i probably will loose to anyone in the top ten even if they're playing with a level 0 player :D
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Postby AUSSIE_FABS » Sun, 22 May 2011 07:37

I'm not so much as complaining as just raising a point that one of the rules is crap lol.
I liked sim rules in ts3 but I don't want the game to just become castrated with one style left.
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Postby Dynushi » Sun, 22 May 2011 07:51

one style left? ok...erm...its hundreds of more styles when overpowered ones are cut out

how can you say something is crap without testing it?
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Postby Rocketsfall » Sun, 22 May 2011 10:41

98% of the possible setups in this game is balanced. 2% isn't. These test tournaments need to take the 2% unbalanced out.
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Postby jayl0ve » Sun, 22 May 2011 10:59

Dynushi wrote:one style left? ok...erm...its hundreds of more styles when overpowered ones are cut out

how can you say something is crap without testing it?


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3 things I know are crap without testing them
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Postby Dynushi » Sun, 22 May 2011 11:06

um...yeah...you're always making me lough :D
i cannot even think about an answer for that...
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Postby djarvik » Sun, 22 May 2011 15:30

Crotatsuya wrote:@Djarvik: We might as well discuss it via pm, since I fear our opinions differ a lot. You might start by answering these points:

1 -where do you think I am wrong concerning defensive baseliners and their reliance on strong fh/bh, and offensive power players and their reliance on....well...power?

2 -in what way do you think matches will improve if each and every player has a weak side (69 isn't solid, its below average). If anything, matches will become more predictable. Also: aren't rallies long enough yet? Maybe it's my lack of skill, but some rallies last forever even without a weaker side.

3 -other stuff you deem important that I forgot to mention.

I wouldn't even care if these rules are made for a sim tour, but rules like this in a regular tour would piss a lot of people off I'm sure.

It's kind of unfortunate that you don't play on the PS3, but I guess I understand the game mechanics well enough to state my opinion, whether you agree or not is another thing.



1 - defensive baselines rely not strong FH/BH, but rather on speed and solid BH/FH. One side is usually stronger, that's the side they generate more winners with. Offensive players rely on power and FH/BH, but once again, usually one side is stronger.

2 - they will improve because right now, out of 20 matches I played on MS and 20 in WS, I have men 35 or so players using the same exact player and using same exact strategy. Not enough? Rallies last forever - that is definitely your problem, and problem of many. No one wants to finish at the net a long rallies. Plus, if your opponent has a weaker side, you may want to attack it few times and then try and run over your stronger side to finish. Using the LT button. Right now, I played only one person who actually used it. Most dont have too, both wings are 80+

3 - what is that supposed to be?

The rules are being tested for regular tour. So we gonna be "castrating" some people if results and feedback are positive.
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Postby Crotatsuya » Sun, 22 May 2011 17:47

Well that isn't a personal message, is it? ;)
Anyway, when you say "usually", do you refer to gameplay or real life tennis?
Because "usually" I see people with relatively even stats in FH/BH, probably because people like it that way. Who are you to order someone to play the game "your" way, I don't tell you to play like I do, do I?

I tell you again, in terms of gamplay speed is only useful, if you can have regularly precise shots with hight stats in FH/BH, otherwise the lack of power will prevent a player like that to keep control of the rallies. And its hard enough without a weak side like that to finish the point du to next to no power with their shots. The point of a full DB in this game is to win the point by precisely placing the ball around the court with stop balls, control shots and so on. Thats why they have these high stats and OBs don't. Thats also why OB's tend to have a strong and weak side in this game and a lot of power, and thats where the risk of an inside out shot actually makes sense, not with the DB like you claimed. Its just wrong. But I guess you feel you know better than me how to play the game, so who am I to dare question you.

Of all the 55 people you played, how many people were actually good enough to last long enough in a rally? The moment you'll meet an equally skilled player rallies can last a long time, point after point. Or do you really expect a prefered baseline player to try and finish points at the net? How often does that happen in real life, which seems to be your prefered source of reference? It all sounds like you want to enforce people to play the game your way.

How many people are playing the tour, and how many are actually reading this forum to give you feedback? I guess it's mostly the SIM players that encourage this, not the regular consensus of players on this site. Many simply don't read it, others might be not that capable of arguing in the English language (its not my first language as well, so I beg your pardon for any errors you might encounter), or some might even hesitate in fear of becoming unpopular. Well, I don't care. I'm not the only one that is annoyed by this. As you said, its not for the SIM tour, so feel the power of my bitching and nerd rage, I'm quite sure that's how this will be called. ;)
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Postby djarvik » Sun, 22 May 2011 17:58

We always had rules. We will have rules for TS4 again.

Who am I? Nobody.

Once again, your opinion noted. And it would be without the personal touch and ;)

You dont have to participate in the test if you don't want. And let me judge what majority here want. Belive me, I will think and analize 10 times before I make a decision. I think I have a rather good track record so far.
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Postby Dynushi » Sun, 22 May 2011 18:27

no one ever thought about loooong rallies also can be an outcome of having no weak wing, huh? ;-)
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