TS4 Sim Rules and Exhibition thread (Hawkeye's Version)

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

I think anything on 85 is to much. And if you get rid of that coach I think the other topspn coaches should be eliminated as well as the two slice coaches. The speed only matters if the player is real tall and has a speed of 70 and above

Pei Jing Quah isn't banned because of she gives topspin invasion. It's because she gives two skills (topspin invasion and monster defense) that complement each other so much. Add that to the fact that she gives 15fh, 15bh, 6srv, 7pw, and 7sta. Especially the strokes.

If you want a ban on topspin/slice invasion, then the same can be said about other skills. In the topspin invasion thread Baghdad wanted serve stick berserker, instant rocket, etc banned as well. You will never get an agreement from the majority on what should stay and what shouldn't. These are complication that should be avoided.
It's hard enough to come up with simplistic sim rules for TS4 that work and people agree on. Trying to add a "banned skills" list would only mean a sim tour would never happen, cause no one would agree on what stays and what goes.

85 in anything is too much? Can you plz explain a bit further I still don't understand why. Giving examples of characters within these rules that have a stat over 85 and are overpowered would help.


Djarvik is right, there is nothing wrong with a 6'4'' character that is fast. They exist in real life.

[tigerofintegrity]

The principles of your system are sound but how do you stop people exploiting your 'relative freedom'? How will your system prevent it from being a watered down version of the current normal tour? I mean, your restrictions stop extreme builds but I'm not sure it will encourage diversity.

Won't the majority of people basically just go for the 8-12OFB and 8-12DFB build using your rules? I can certainly see that happening as those are the strongest and just like now, there will be few players out there with any points in S&V. SIM tour should be simulating real life tennis as much as possible right? Most pros these days have pretty decent serves so most players on TS4 SIM without any levels in S&V wouldn't really reflect this. I think we may have to find a way to force people to put some levels into S&V.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

I just posted this in the topspin invasion thread, I guess I'll bring it here.

@tigerofintegrity

Oh I've run into a lot of people who put 20pts into s&v.

If you make accomodations for s&v because it's not overpowered, what about baseliner stats that are not overpowered but don't make use of the minimum stat requirement? Would they be allowed too? If yes, then that would create gray areas that would need a better explanation and this would further complicate things. If no, then sim like stats and differences between people using the same coach would hampered.

Yeah this way of leveling up isn't bad, it just needs some fine tuning. Giving people the ability to level up what they want individually, like TS3, is a bad idea. You can create sim characters with 12ofb 8dfb or vice versa. How the points are distributed is what, i believe, makes them sim like or not. That's where the stroke restriction rules come in.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

The principles of your system are sound but how do you stop people exploiting your 'relative freedom'? How will your system prevent it from being a watered down version of the current normal tour? I mean, your restrictions stop extreme builds but I'm not sure it will encourage diversity.

Won't the majority of people basically just go for the 8-12OFB and 8-12DFB build using your rules? I can certainly see that happening as those are the strongest and just like now, there will be few players out there with any points in S&V. SIM tour should be simulating real life tennis as much as possible right? Most pros these days have pretty decent serves so most players on TS4 SIM without any levels in S&V wouldn't really reflect this. I think we may have to find a way to force people to put some levels into S&V.

I don't want to force people to put points into any stat they don't want persay. Although it doesn't state it, in order to use some coaches you'll need to put some points into s&v, and possibly alter your strokes, or your character won't fit the strokes/power requirement. The strokes/power requirement is what limits their freedom.

I can't say what stats people will go for. It's just when you start coming up against baseliners with 70+ pw and 80+ strokes, like in WT right now, it makes the game even more pong than it already is. I wouldn't say 12ofb 8dfb or vice versa is the strongest. There is no way to know what will happen until people start experimenting.

I still want good offensive baseliners to exist, but, unlike WT, I don't want them to having high power and 80+ strokes with a huge serve on the side. Big servers can exist as well, 80+pw, but then they should have trouble keeping up with baseliners during rallies, hence the "no stroke passing 69" restriction.

This way people can't have characters playing multiple roles: Big serve, huge power, huge strokes. There is no point in creating a big server or offensive baseliner only, when you can have it all.

There's no way to tell how real life pros "points" are distributed. It would be a guess, and most likely a bad one at that. That's why I didn't make any stat requirements. There will always be characters that are sim like that won't fit stat requirements, and then the gray areas sip in. Which would need more rules to further explain the gray areas. Adding more and more rules.
I wanted to keep it simple, and this was the only way I found that worked best.

That's why I want to hear what people say, specifically after testing. It would help a ton.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

Also @ tigerofintegrity

How do the rules diversify things? I'll give examples. Lets take 3 coaches/stats that are useless in the current system.

8s&v, 12dfb
fh 70
bh 60
srv 61
vol 67
pw 51
sta 70
spe 87
rf 74
Diesel returner, Amazing first volley

6s&v, 5ofb, 9dfb
fh 81
bh 61
srv 78
vol 53
pw 58
sta 71
spe 68
rf 70
Wrong foot expert, approach shots expert

6ofb, 14dfb
fh 79
bh 71
srv 60
vol 39
pw 68
sta 95
spe 71
rf 52
Topspin invasion, longer! better!

You never see characters like these now because they would get destroyed. Not only have offense and defense been capped at 14, how offensive/defensive you can be is also affected. Now those 3 characters above don't have to worry about 80+pw 80+srv 80+stroke opponents easily overpowering them in rallies anymore. They'll also be able to keep up with the extreme defensive baseliners that fit within these rules as well.

Longer! better! is a good skill, but the coaches that give it suck. Hopefully now people won't be scared to explore.

[djarvik]

just want to throw this out there, when playing player matches - one only sees the stats, not levels. If there is no easy, instantaneous way to see if the setup is confirm to the rules - the it wont work.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

just want to throw this out there, when playing player matches - one only sees the stats, not levels. If there is no easy, instantaneous way to see if the setup is confirm to the rules - the it wont work.

I knew this could be a problem. I have a back up, but this would require Jon Samala to be banned. Instant rocket, Monster defense (2 skills that complement each other too much) and his stat distribution, like pei, would be too dominant.

Here it is

RULES
Minimum of 50 volley with no added coach bonus. (Atleast 4 points in s&v)

The coach Pei Jing Quah (Topspin invasion, Monster Defense) is banned.

The coach Jon Samala (Instant Rocket, Monster Defense) is banned

1) Customs with a power rating of 69 points or less.
You can create any type of player you want, as long as your power stat is 69 points or less.

2)Customs with a power rating between 70 - 79 points
Your strokes (backhand/forehand) cannot surpass 79 points.

3)Customs with a power rating of 80 points or more
Your storkes (backhand/forehand) cannot surpass 69 points.



They must have a minimum of 50 in volley with no coach bonus. Cant have monster defense/topspin invasion, or monster defense/instant rocket. 69 power of less, then it doesn't matter what strokes they have. 70 - 79 pw and no stroke can pass 79. 80pw or more and no stroke can pass 69.

How about that?

[tigerofintegrity]

just want to throw this out there, when playing player matches - one only sees the stats, not levels. If there is no easy, instantaneous way to see if the setup is confirm to the rules - the it wont work.

That is a very good point. Unfortunately we can't just assume everyone will follow the rules so this does make my method hard to enforce. I mean, we could get everyone participating to pre-post their builds so they can be double-checked, sort of like a database I guess, but that would be more tedious and may throw people off bothering to play the SIM tour.

I guess for now, we'll just have to run with Miihawk's idea and see how that works in practice. I still get the feeling that we'll see far too many 8-12OFB and 8-12DFB players but it's something we can only find out after it's been run on a large scale. That's my only concern but everything else appears workable!

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

That is a very good point. Unfortunately we can't just assume everyone will follow the rules so this does make my method hard to enforce. I mean, we could get everyone participating to pre-post their builds so they can be double-checked, sort of like a database I guess, but that would be more tedious and may throw people off bothering to play the SIM tour.

I guess for now, we'll just have to run with Miihawk's idea and see how that works in practice. I still get the feeling that we'll see far too many 8-12OFB and 8-12DFB players but it's something we can only find out after it's been run on a large scale. That's my only concern but everything else appears workable!

I modified it so it's easier to just see and know. Lol, I feel guilty for borrowing your minimum of 4 in s&v idea though

[tigerofintegrity]

I modified it so it's easier to just see and know. Lol, I feel guilty for borrowing your minimum of 4 in s&v idea though

That sounds promising. That would leave 8OFB and 8DFB as the maximum together. That definitely would help volley tactics to compete with baseline games more. I think it would give more diversity overall because not everyone will just flock to the stronger, easier 8-12OFB and 8-12DFB strategy.

And don't feel guilty about it! Probably the best thing to do is to take the best aspects out of several suggestions and put them together.

[Q-Spin]

Im more of a reader (and thinker ) then a writer, so here some short notes:

-rules must be simple to understand AND simple to control (i know your rules are not thaaaat complicated, but still...)

-even with a 4 on S&V there will be "some"(not enough to talk of balance) creations that are superior to the others

-more rules --> more loss in variety

-you can create players that break your rules but still are weaker(or on the same level) as players in the rules

-i dont want to sound too pessimistic, i like alot of your ideas, especially the connection between strokes and power rating

-i also like venoms idea to see both wings in conjunction, so you dont have two super good wings


My idea:

-only one simple rule: forehand + backhand + 2*power cannot surpass 300 points

-for example at powerlevel 75 you have 150 points left for the wings, 75fh/75bh/75pow as "allrounder", or 85/65/75...

-or 80fh/50bh/85pow as a powerguy with one good wing and one really weak wing to attack

What do you think?

[venom400]

it cannot be a sim without a weak wing !

I agree with anything but this , you should give people 150 points to allocate between forehand and backhand so they can chose to have a perfectly balanced 75 to 75 or a killer forehand with a weak backhand .

In Real tennis there is no perfect backhand forehand , without a weak side to attack there will be no sim....

Edit:q-spin idea is right on too!

[AMAZING ZIZOU]

I've been reading those ideas. There is plenty of good things but I still think the best SIm rule ever would be the one we had in TS3 but it means a LOT of works from the management and I don't know if they wanna do it (at least for now).

I'll just explain quickly how it worked for the non ts3 players.

Djarvik, Anilje and Rob (i don't remember if there were another guy) made a lot of tests and created a list of 18 players with SIM stats. To play the SIM tour, you jsut had to pick one player of this list.

[maximo]

Test players in TS4 is harder than in TS3, u have to complete objectives to get the skills, if ITST want test players in the future i could help if they want, . ( i have created similar players to TS3 SIM, and look good)

[supinesmokey13]

Test players in TS4 is harder than in TS3, u have to complete objectives to get the skills, if ITST want test players in the future i could help if they want, . ( i have created similar players to TS3 SIM, and look good)

Icant test any setups at the moment my gold membership has expired but i have 12 setup that i have tested that i can post to see if they could be used for a sim tour