Pros and Customs on tour: Please don't knee-jerk ban it!

[JJ_DUBZ_87]

I feel like if you're a good player, the type of setup shouldn't really matter. KDZ, you shouldn't have to copy a setup that other ppl are using for easy success because you are good enough to beat a mutant with Chang if you wanted.

You understand the game better than most, and i feel like it's guys like you (and Djarvik and ItaStallion, and maybe me in like 4 months) that should make either an all-around custom or a defensive custom and start changing the "photo-copy" setup syndrome that made TS3 SUCK BALLS in the end!!!

Everyone is mentioning these monster setups, but YOU can get these guys thinking by beating them with a more all-around setup. Instead of fading into the crowd, stand out and say "NO I'm not going to do what everyone else is doing. I'm going to do THIS and beat the stencil/cookie-cut-out guys to a pulp with my Chang-esque player." or even a serve and volley player.

But... I digress...

I think if there's two tours it won't hurt the ITST. That way, people who don't want to make a custom don't have to. And those who don't want to play with a pro, don't have to. There's a tour for both sides of the fence (I'm on the custom side though )

[JJ_DUBZ_87]

...then again there are guys that simply LOVE playing as an offensive baseliner, which is fine. But if you're playing that style because it's convenient or because Joe-Schmoe is number one with it... mmm... I'm not a fan.

[KDZaster]

At the end of the day Matchups still matter.

Just like IRL Federer has trouble with players who can hit short balls and hard flats off of both wings, the game version displays the same issues.

Andy Roddick has less of a problem against them IRL, and similarly has less problems with them in the game.

So there ARE customs that can give even the best pros a serious problem.

[jayl0ve]

Elias has right idea have a "whatever" tour lol.

I'm starting to sense a gaddafi vibe in this forum

Me too, to be frank...I don't really like it. I'm a little shocked at how quickly new ideas are dismissed here with absolutely no thought put into it other than "duuurrrr this is what we've been doing 4ever durrrr".

[ItaStallion]

I feel like if you're a good player, the type of setup shouldn't really matter. KDZ, you shouldn't have to copy a setup that other ppl are using for easy success because you are good enough to beat a mutant with Chang if you wanted.

You understand the game better than most, and i feel like it's guys like you (and Djarvik and ItaStallion, and maybe me in like 4 months) that should make either an all-around custom or a defensive custom and start changing the "photo-copy" setup syndrome that made TS3 SUCK BALLS in the end!!!

Everyone is mentioning these monster setups, but YOU can get these guys thinking by beating them with a more all-around setup. Instead of fading into the crowd, stand out and say "NO I'm not going to do what everyone else is doing. I'm going to do THIS and beat the stencil/cookie-cut-out guys to a pulp with my Chang-esque player." or even a serve and volley player.

But... I digress...

I think if there's two tours it won't hurt the ITST. That way, people who don't want to make a custom don't have to. And those who don't want to play with a pro, don't have to. There's a tour for both sides of the fence (I'm on the custom side though )

In Customs there is a slight problem in that there are 2 monster setups that are extremely hard to beat if you don't use 1 of the 2. Me and OscarZero tried it out last night i tried a more powerful player with diesel server and inside out master and he used his standard top spin invasion and monster defence.

Now the problem was no matter how perfect my shots were my angles could not compare to his and even with a much greater power stat and speed stat every ball i hit he got to easily and hit angled winners at will.

So i went and used my top spin invasion and monster defence guy against him and all of a sudden i broke his serve twice in 1 set which seemed impossible to do with my other set up.

So personally i can see the 2 monster set ups dominating this tour now and not much else.

[Elias]

So personally i can see the 2 monster set ups dominating this tour now and not much else.

Sounds like a nice arcade game full of perks..

[JJ_DUBZ_87]

So personally i can see the 2 monster set ups dominating this tour now and not much else.

Sounds like a nice arcade game full of perks..

...ugh this doesn't look good...

Any word on a new Smash Court Tennis title??

[AUSSIE_FABS]

A sim thing would fix that.

Also allowing pros to possibly counter. Just throwing ideas out there.

[TomBs]

Nah, if you're allowing pros to counter it you leave absolutely no room for the normal setups.

[AUSSIE_FABS]

True a fair/normal set up would be generally dom'd by a pro, although in some match ups the 'normal' could do alright.

I think it should be normal to expect that sometimes matchups will be unfair.

As soon as I find a way to make a djokovic I won't care lol.

[jayl0ve]

True a fair/normal set up would be generally dom'd by a pro, although in some match ups the 'normal' could do alright.

I think it should be normal to expect that sometimes matchups will be unfair.

As soon as I find a way to make a djokovic I won't care lol.

EGG-FRIGGIN-ZACTLY

[Oscarzero]

In Customs there is a slight problem in that there are 2 monster setups that are extremely hard to beat if you don't use 1 of the 2. Me and OscarZero tried it out last night i tried a more powerful player with diesel server and inside out master and he used his standard top spin invasion and monster defence.

Now the problem was no matter how perfect my shots were my angles could not compare to his and even with a much greater power stat and speed stat every ball i hit he got to easily and hit angled winners at will.

So i went and used my top spin invasion and monster defence guy against him and all of a sudden i broke his serve twice in 1 set which seemed impossible to do with my other set up.

So personally i can see the 2 monster set ups dominating this tour now and not much else.

Well I am not good at serves so I don't think it's that hard to break my serves

That said, I would say my set-up is "above average' in that it's really good at rally. That's how I designed my custom. After so many matches, I would say it is a good set-up, similar to your 83-83-80 Topspin Invasion/Monster Defence. These two should be the best set-up for rally. However, I don't think these 2 set-up will dominate the tour. The reason is that the Serve-Power set-up actually gives you a higher percentage in winning a match against a better opponent. Using your serve/power character as example, I only manage to break your serving POINTS twice during 1 SET. That's why you find it extremely difficult to break my serve - I am playing at 120% and I cannot lose any points or else that's it The result will be different if you change your playstyle and do all kinds of guessing instead of trying to overcome me during rally. No fun? Probably, but I know I need lots of luck to win the match, no matter how good I am.

Just having my first ITST tour, and my opponent used Serena to play against my custom. That's a very tough match since Serena is a very well-balanced character with 3 special skills.Well the match has finished and I just know from this thread that the tours are custom only.

KDZaster, I support your idea in that we should "ban after trying" instead of "ban before trying". Probably ITST could organize a few more "testing tournaments" and see what will happen.

[SoundfSilence]

I really, really want the tour to be pros AND customs.


Hi, you don't know me yet. My name is KDZ, and I come from a fighting game tournament community. In this setting balance is a much bigger concern because we play this game at high-stakes for thousands of dollars. There are teams, sponsors, rivalries, world tournaments, etc. So obviously the issue of balance and fairness is a prominent issue.

This game is basically a fighting game with a ball.

In this community, where something called a "tier list" exists. It's the amount and regularity that one character matches up to every character, individually, in the game and then. A "Top Tier" character is a character that has the most "favorable matchups" and the least "unfavorable matchups". This is usually done on a scale of 10 matches, how many should one character win vs another if both players are truly perfect (human error is a non-issue). An VERY unfavorable matchup is 7-3.

I do like your analogy to the Fighting Game (Street Fighter) Tier lists.

However, the major differences when comparing the games are:

1)

- Top tier character in SSF4 is Honda. His matchups are favorable from 7-3, 6-4, but he also has neutral 5-5, AND he even has bad matchups where he is 4-6! Even using what's deemed the most overpowered setup, there are other characters who can beat him.

- Top tier TS4 custom character is 83fh, 83bh, 80pw with Monster Defence + Top Spin Invasion. This setup will be 10-0, 9-1, 8-2 on most other custom setups. At best, you get 7-3 (there is certainly no setups that will beat this 4-6). Sure, this is only my opinion, but I do not see on the forums where people have come up with setups that beat this.

2)

- In SSF4, there is no option to create your own character. Hence, no problems with people creating Monsters. Hence, balanced game.

- In TS4, (and like TS3), you can still create Monsters who just can't be beaten unless you use the same setup. (We are assuming players of equal skills here. Of course, a significantly less skilled player can still lose with a Monster). This is why ITST made a Sim tour of preset balanced characters in TS3 which was a great success.

So really, the analogy doesn't quite fit in my opinion.

Have a Pros and Customs tour is in principle a great idea. If people would enter purely on the fun factor, you will have some interesting matches. In reality, this is unlikely, as people will want to compete with the best setups to give them best chance to win. Why would you take a 'sim' like setup to face a powerful pro, or your Monster custom setup? You will soon get bored and either not play the tour or use the Monster setup yourself (which then means we have two tours of Monsters ).

I know I'm a bit late to this topic, but better late than never

[jayl0ve]

Good to hear from you Sound you always seem to put a lot of thought into your stuff.

You are right, the main difference is the ability to create your own character.
I have said for a long time that they should just do away with that option and have a SF-like setup.

When I make comparisons to fighting games I'm pretty much ignoring the custom character option...

[SoundfSilence]

Hey jay, yeah I've not posted much, been away. I've only just bought TS4 too

I absolutely agree with you, TS4 pros are balanced, just like SF characters. It's only when you add the custom bit onto it, it doesn't quite work. A separate pro tour could be a nice option though.