Dear 2K,

[Fabada7]

Ts4 is my first Top Spin game but I think that...guys... its a videogame... no more!
I play tenis too in the real life and I think that Ts4 is so realistic but its a videogame. The objective of a videogame is that the game is funny.


(sorry for my english I need to imporve it a lot!! )

[djarvik]

This whole discussion got me curious about how much better the TS4 actually sold. If the whole approach of "less learning curve = more mass appeal" is actually right. So I done some searches and below is the best I can come up with.

If we trust the figures as illustrated below - the concept fails. TS3 remains the best selling Tennis SIM and the whole "easier to start" approach fails.

Now I am not sure if they are true, but if we assume they are:


Top Spin 4 - total sales - 0.18 Mil
http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-da ... op-spin-4/

Top Spin 3 - total sales - 0.55 Mil
http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-da ... op-spin-3/

[Ali-Iqb93]

Top spin 4 is way more realistic than ts3.. Just if they exclude control shots and some unrealistic angles then this game is very much realistic in regard of different playstyles and setups.. If 2k makes the possibility of more unforced and forced errors in this game like (if you hit a shot with "too soon" timings then it should be an error by hitting the net) and ( if you hit a shot with too late" timings then it should go out of the court) everytime then this game would be very much realistic.. In ts3 rallies might be possible but only for great players not for all.. Risk shots resemble in real life tennis only if you try to hit a return ace on your opponents service.. But if we look at rallies in real life then ts4 represents more realism...

[edlglide]

Top spin 4 is way more realistic than ts3.. Just if they exclude control shots and some unrealistic angles then this game is very much realistic in regard of different playstyles and setups.. If 2k makes the possibility of more unforced and forced errors in this game like (if you hit a shot with "too soon" timings then it should be an error by hitting the net) and ( if you hit a shot with too late" timings then it should go out of the court) everytime then this game would be very much realistic.. In ts3 rallies might be possible but only for great players not for all.. Risk shots resemble in real life tennis only if you try to hit a return ace on your opponents service.. But if we look at rallies in real life then ts4 represents more realism...

I'm not going to argue between TS3 and TS4, because I only played TS3 a few times -- so this post has nothing to do with comparing TS3 to TS4, it's just comparing TS4 to real tennis.

A TS4 match looks nothing like a real tennis match. The rallies are insane -- they are people hitting the ball short on the lines from behind the baseline, then a guy ripping one cross court or down the line from way outside the court, then back to a short cross court shot from the baseline.....guys hit shots 5-6 times in one rally that most tennis pros don't hit once in an entire match. Some of them could probably pull off those shots a few times in a match, but they generally won't go for it because you're going to hit it out or into the net the majority of the time -- since that doesn't happen on TS4, it's like watching two robots play tennis a way to real people could never play it. Beyond that, the players hit the ball MUCH too hard on TS4. The rallies look like two guys swinging as absolutely hard as they can on every ball, hitting it faster and harder on every shot than most pros ever do. If you timed the amount of time it takes for a ball to go across the net in a rally of TS4 vs. a rally of real pros, I guarantee the ball is getting there much quicker on TS4 (at least if you are playing someone with power in the 80s or higher, which is at least half the players).

With all that said, I still like TS4....it's just it could be so much better in every single aspect of the game. The only thing that feels close to being right is the serve, but that's only for guys with monster serves.

[ILuvBillVal]

I like TS4 a lot. I can just recognize the things I wish they'd done differently. TS3, though a bit more primitive was EASILY much more of a tennis sim than TS4 which is much more arcade. Basically this is a summary of the way I see it:

The Good:
-Graphics look great. This includes swing animations and player animations (excluding inside out plays). The courts look awesome as well.

-The balancing of the game seems a lot better in many ways. For instance even the best serves are returnable which was something that I thought was a little overly difficult in TS3. Also there is no ONE setup that beats all so you see a bit (while not much) more variety than in the former.

-There are a lot more options for clothing and accessories when creating players which is a huge improvement and definitely helps the creativity a bit.

-Skills are a fresh addition to the game that add a whole new level of consideration when creating your player.

-The new World Tour is way better than the one in the former. Just wish the timer countdowns were a little shorter maybe thirty seconds.

The Bad:
-The replays are SO annoying. I have no idea why they didn't just make them optional.

-There is only really 4 stats that 80% of players pay attention to. While speed and stamina do certainly have some bearing on the match I don't believe it's nearly enough given how much influences the wings and power have.

-Just as they are fresh, skills often overshadow the statistical side of the game and create problems.

-The creation side makes up for an abundance of clothes with a lack of other options including faces, serve and swing animations, and a stripped down version of the Face Morpher.

-The menu screens and general loading times are a major downside. TS3 loaded eons faster than this one, and I'm not a fan of the practice ball machine in the load screen I think it'd be better as something you could go to when and if you wanted to.

-The movement in matches is either okay or it just plain sucks. The game attempts to control you and snap you into positions and it's just a mess. You notice an immediate difference when you play TS3 and are given free range to move and set up shots. Here it's almost like there are only certain places it will let you go and things it will let you do.

-The shot stuff we already talked about but yeah it leads to rallies that are just too long and the end game stats look more unrealistic than ever with a HUGE shortage of errors.

[maderer]

I agree with all that Djarvik has said. Hopefully he can influence 2K in TS5..

I have only played TS3 a day or two ago, but I have heard in the past from friends that TS3 had a steep learning curve.

2K probably tried to address those concerns by making the game simpler (part AI/part human player movement, lesser errors, ping pong style control shots, myriad set of skills) hoping to appeal to a broader market. In my opinion as it stands today TS4 will probably not appeal to those who are looking for serious realistic tennis gameplay.

If point construction and gameplay is not realistic (to how it is being played in the pro circuit or amateur level) then game cannot be successful in longer run imho because sooner or later someone else will make a better simulation of the game and Top Spin will be left behind (trying to appeal to broader market casual gamers).

[jayl0ve]

I think the biggest thing is- like you said- the movement is 'part AI/part human'.

I think the movement needs to be completely non CPU-assisted...I think that's actually a huge deal that not many people have mentioned.

[maderer]

I think the biggest thing is- like you said- the movement is 'part AI/part human'.

I think the movement needs to be completely non CPU-assisted...I think that's actually a huge deal that not many people have mentioned.

Yeah, as I see it there are three main shortcomings that take away realistic tennis from the game.

Loss of 1-1 control of player movement is half the fun gone right there.

Then they need to remove those unrealistic ping pong style control shots at extreme angles. The game grossly underestimates the difficulty of making these type repeatedly in a rally. I play tennis with my friends at amateur level. Even at my level I can tell you that it is impossible to hit these kind of slow motion crazy angled shots in a real court without making a significant number of errors.

Remove the skills. They distort the game significantly.

There are other minor shortcomings like speed and power do not degrade as much as they should. But these can be sorted out, the major flaws cannot!

The product would have been a lot better if they concentrated more on the dynamics of shot and player movement - moving them more to realistic territory. TS3 seem to have been almost there. Maybe a few tweaks and enhanced graphics of TS4 would have been a lot better product for serious tennis players.

[djarvik]

I agree with you maderer. Bottom line is, tennis is not a main stream video game sport. Sadly, but a lot of casual players while enjoy playing it outdoors, just don't find it fun to play it virtually. This type of "fun" reserved mainly for more serious fans. Hence the demand for realism and a degree of difficulty and depth.

None of the tennis games on the market today crossed or even got close to a Million sales. TS3 was on track and sold the most. I was in the same boat with the developers, thinking that an easier approach game might bring more people, but it appears to be a wrong school of thought. If anything, they need to add more complexity while attempting to not over complicate.

I would say that two modes of game play, one for beginner - more forgiving and one for a Pro - hard core.., would be the way to go, but the more I think about it, the more I think this will not be hours well spent. The hours would be better invested into having a better depth within the game.

While 2Ks bold attempts to almost totally change the game from installment to installment are admirable, I think that once you do get a decent product, you need to stick with it and improve that slowly.

They should have stayed with TS3 concept and developed it further. Slightly changing things around. It would have cost less money, money that could be spent elsewhere (take your pick).

The only hope we have is that TS5 will be another drastic change....and for the better. But by the looks of the sales figures, the management at 2K will need some very clever convincing to even allow another TS project see any light. Lets hope EA GST2 will be a solid product, competition always makes for better products.

[maderer]

I agree with you maderer. Bottom line is, tennis is not a main stream video game sport. Sadly, but a lot of casual players while enjoy playing it outdoors, just don't find it fun to play it virtually. This type of "fun" reserved mainly for more serious fans. Hence the demand for realism and a degree of difficulty and depth.

None of the tennis games on the market today crossed or even got close to a Million sales. TS3 was on track and sold the most. I was in the same boat with the developers, thinking that an easier approach game might bring more people, but it appears to be a wrong school of thought. If anything, they need to add more complexity while attempting to not over complicate.

I would say that two modes of game play, one for beginner - more forgiving and one for a Pro - hard core.., would be the way to go, but the more I think about it, the more I think this will not be hours well spent. The hours would be better invested into having a better depth within the game.

While 2Ks bold attempts to almost totally change the game from installment to installment are admirable, I think that once you do get a decent product, you need to stick with it and improve that slowly.

They should have stayed with TS3 concept and developed it further. Slightly changing things around. It would have cost less money, money that could be spent elsewhere (take your pick).

The only hope we have is that TS5 will be another drastic change....and for the better. But by the looks of the sales figures, the management at 2K will need some very clever convincing to even allow another TS project see any light. Lets hope EA GST2 will be a solid product, competition always makes for better products.

Yeah, looks like GST2 will be fun, lot of similarities to GST in terms of roster/courts/basic tennis dynamics. From videos it appears they seemed to fix a lot of issues that were raised in GST. Flat shot, player court size imbalance, player reach, HD graphics etc.. It wont be as sim as TS3 but it will be fun especially with PS3 move motion control+HD and more realistic tennis than TS4.

[jayl0ve]

I wish TS games were just like almost every other sports game...where, instead of COMPLETELY revamping the game for every new installation, they pretty much stay with the same game engine from year-to-year, and make only minor changes (AS NEEDED) to improve it.

I hate having to learn a new system for each game...IMO they almost had it perfect with TS2, it just needed a few tweaks to make it more 'realistic' and maybe more balanced....instead TS3 was a completely different game. Completely different graphics engine, completely different controls, completely different 'feel' to it....funk dat

[ILuvBillVal]

Well if anyone could potentially stick a fork in Top Spin it's Electronic Arts. The game sounds cool too. I only hope the creation options are as deep so it works well with ITST. The stick swinging sounds interesting, though a little comical because I think EA is fascinated with using the analog stick.

[djarvik]

I love using my stick! EA FTW

[L Sanchez MD]

This whole discussion got me curious about how much better the TS4 actually sold. If the whole approach of "less learning curve = more mass appeal" is actually right. So I done some searches and below is the best I can come up with.

If we trust the figures as illustrated below - the concept fails. TS3 remains the best selling Tennis SIM and the whole "easier to start" approach fails.

Now I am not sure if they are true, but if we assume they are:


Top Spin 4 - total sales - 0.18 Mil
http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-da ... op-spin-4/

Top Spin 3 - total sales - 0.55 Mil
http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-da ... op-spin-3/

Not sure if someone suggested this yet, but it's possible that people didn't buy TS4 *because* they didn't like the steep learning curve in 3, and assumed 4 would be the same.
I've no idea though, just speculating.

[djarvik]

Hardly, the marketing push behind TS4 was simplicity. 2K made very serious effort to get the message across of how much easier the game is compare to TS3.