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Postby DennieFR1908 » Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:30

Hmmm.. let's put it like this: The way I learned to play tennis has nothing to do with risk shots.

I learned to build up the point from the baseline, keeping the ball deep. When someone plays the ball weak, in the serve area, you have to play an approach, after that you walk trough to the net and finish off the point.

The only situation I can think of where you can talk about a risk shot, is when you are driven into the corner, after someone played an approach, and you don't have any choice but put everything into the passing shot, the way Federer and Nadal do so often.

I was always learned by my teacher a risk shot in tennis is stupid because it makes you give away the point, the basic of tennis is keeping the ball deep waiting for your opponent to play a weak ball and than finish the ralley off with an approach. But oh well, it could be me :)
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Postby DennieFR1908 » Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:39

djarvik wrote:That's when you weight your options and either risk more or risk less.


I do agree on this sentence though, depending on how easy your opponents ball is you can always put more "risk" in your shot, but this is not determend by an risk button because it makes you hit or with 0% risk or 100% risk, I think that's not the way it works in real life.
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Postby ANILTJE » Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:06

What Dennie is right about is that in TS3 you have zero control over where a shot lands. So you just push a button add a risk trigger and it will land about the same place when it's in.
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Postby emate007 » Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:26

DennieFR1908 wrote:it makes you hit or with 0% risk or 100% risk, I think that's not the way it works in real life.


It's not a perfect system, but it works a lot better than you make it sound when you have 3 different, specific kinds of risk. And every shot in "real tennis" has an element of risk. TS3 captures this better than any other game I know. Granted, the system was abused by timing masters at the end of the game's life, but still... Great system that should be built upon and made better.

On a side note, it seems like you assume you're the only ITST member who's ever touched a real racket. This is not the case, and it annoys me when someone tells me how it is in 'real' tennis. Especially so when the same person says:
DennieFR1908 wrote:Lol your response makes no sense what so ever


I hope we meet in a different forum someday. :wink:
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Postby Rob ITST » Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:36

It doesn't matter if there is a risk button or not, there just needs to be a risk of missing when you go for more placement or power. Even without adding errors, they could have done better. If mistimed control and power shots were much slower and shorter than normal shots, it would at least force you to make a decision on when to take chances. On TS4, there's no reason to ever hit a normal shot. So basically, it's like TS3, but everyone hits risk shots 100% of the time.
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Postby djarvik » Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:00

DennieFR1908 wrote:Hmmm.. let's put it like this: The way I learned to play tennis has nothing to do with risk shots.

I learned to build up the point from the baseline, keeping the ball deep. When someone plays the ball weak, in the serve area, you have to play an approach, after that you walk trough to the net and finish off the point.

The only situation I can think of where you can talk about a risk shot, is when you are driven into the corner, after someone played an approach, and you don't have any choice but put everything into the passing shot, the way Federer and Nadal do so often.

I was always learned by my teacher a risk shot in tennis is stupid because it makes you give away the point, the basic of tennis is keeping the ball deep waiting for your opponent to play a weak ball and than finish the ralley off with an approach. But oh well, it could be me :)



What you describe is not wrong, this is beginners guide to tennis. I teach the same philosophy to all beginners.

If both players are equally skilled at keeping the ball deep cross, where does that "weak ball" come from? ;)

All said above is correct, even by you Dannie, even about TS3....but the sentence about the risk shots.

"I was always learned by my teacher a risk shot in tennis is stupid because it makes you give away the point,"


If you are above 3.5 level and your teachers still pushes this philosophy to you - get another teacher.


The only situation I can think of where you can talk about a risk shot, is when you are driven into the corner, after someone played an approach, and you don't have any choice but put everything into the passing shot, the way Federer and Nadal do so often.


What you speak of is more of a "all or nothing" shot. If a player feels like he will not be able to recover with a rally shot - he resorts to this. The risk that I speak of, is me playing you, and me seeing that you clearly cannot handle my pace, so instead of rallying with you till the "weak ball" - I will try to "push" you to give me that weak ball on a first-second point. Sure, I will make some mistakes and will have to adjust, but I surely won't wait for your mistake. The risk I am talking about is change the direction of the ball, seeing how you camp around on a cross. I can go on and on.

Tennis game is built around Errors, both, forced and unforced. One just needs to look at any match stats in ATP. By your philosophy, all players just rally until the weak ball that is going to be put away. That is TS4 correct....but now compare it to tennis.

Risk are being taken on every shot in tennis. I am talking about a competitive match.

DMT and TS3 are the best representation of that. Sure, TS3 had predetermined shot placement, but to me, TS4 is even worse in that department. It moves your player for you for once, and you never miss for second. DMT is great at making you move your player and have your positioning and timing dictate the outcome of the shot....but it too separates the shot into three: Normal, Hard, Super Hard. DMT takes approach of all shots being risk and instead of Risk Buttons, it makes you select shot type buttons. TS3 did the opposite. TS4 fails at that completely.

The Control shots and the Power shots should have been risk. Control hit too early or too late should ALWAYS go out. "Good" control shots should be lame, only "perfect" shots should carry some weight.

Power shots should have been outs if you mistime them just the same, plus, if you pre-press, over-hold, over-charge - it should fly long.

This way player will have to use Normal shots, press and release on time. But in order for that to work, the game needs to let your player move freely and not lock him into "moving to the ball", "animations".


Ufff... sorry for the long post
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Postby RainingAmoeba79 » Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:25

I agree with djarvik, but the thing is I can not hit a normal shot on purpose: it either registers as a power or control shot :?

but seriously, there are NOOO errors in this game at all. I avegone through ITST matches with 30-1 w/ue ratio, wich is bogus.
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Postby SIeeepy » Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:54

Man. Wouldn't it be something if we had a real life ITST tennis tournament? I would love to see who would win that tournament. Obviously me. Just kidding lol. I'm sure there's someone better than me on here. But probably not :P

I've only ever played TS1 and TS4 so i'm not sure how risk shots worked in TS2 or 3. But i have to agree with everything djarvik just said lol. Couldn't have said it better myself. Dude you should totally help design Top Spin 5 haha.
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Postby ILuvBillVal » Mon, 14 Nov 2011 01:38

Yeah having risk shots is way more realistic. Call them whatever you want Risk, Control, Fat Dude Walking on a Tight Rope Shot whatever. The point is basically going for a better shot whether it be more accurate or more powerful, something of which there is NO concept of in TS4. Normal shots with good timing in this game produce the same results (if not better) than most risk shots in TS3. All this with the downside of little to no errors whatsoever. Not only that but on a personal level I feel like it makes hitting a great shot feel a lot less rewarding than it used to.
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Postby bkristian » Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:46

Dear 2k......................................

why 2k, why! how could you!
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Postby DennieFR1908 » Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:59

What I describe is not only beginners guide, it's also the basic of tennis. No matter on what level you have to keep the balls deep.

That you have to push your opponent and take more risk to your shots, that's no more than logical. But this has nothing to do with some kind of risk shot. A 'risk shot' has nothing to do with tennis. Every shot has more or less risk, depending on how you want to hit your ball. The reason I compared it to the "All or nothing shot" is because in TS3, it actually is an all or nothing shot. It has nothing to do with putting more risk in your strokes. Either the ball goes down the line, either it goes in the net or out in an ugly way. Ofcourse they should have figuired out a way to add more risk to your shots, but not by some kind of crazy risk shot button. You can say you can't take people who think this seriously, djarvik, but it's unrealistic.You can say in a disparaging way "even by you dannie" like I'm some kind of moroon, but in real life players don't go hit like a mad man, they will always do it with pace, try to keep there opponent under pressure to force a weaker ball they can finish off.

By your philosophy, all players just rally until the weak ball that is going to be put away. That is TS4 correct....but now compare it to tennis.


This is not my philosophy, I just said what the basic of tennis is. It seemed to me it's only natural and I didn't have to explain you that in the rally you have to force that weaker ball.. all I needed to say is that it has got nothing to do with risk shots in the way of TS3.

Risk are being taken on every shot in tennis. I am talking about a competitive match.


Exactly. With other words, putting it all into one Risk shot button doesn't make sense.

The Control shots and the Power shots should have been risk. Control hit too early or too late should ALWAYS go out. "Good" control shots should be lame, only "perfect" shots should carry some weight.

Power shots should have been outs if you mistime them just the same, plus, if you pre-press, over-hold, over-charge - it should fly long.


Nice idea, I also tought about a simular idea, but I gues you realize this game isn't only build for ITST, it's a game for everyone and people don't want to spend hours and hours to control the game, also, rally's would look ugly with this system.

Another possibilty is they should let you 'steer' with your arrows after you release your power button or control button. If you steer to much, the ball will go out, so you have to get the feeling of how much you have to steer every shot. This way you will really take more risk if you want to make sharper angels. If you hit it perfect, the ball will go nice and smooth where you aimed it, will you hit good, the ball will go a little lame and a little off from where you pointed your shot, and when you hit to late or to soon the ball has to go about 2 meter from where you wanted your shot. Meaning if you know your timing is off you need to anticipate and aim more in court so your ball won't go out. Ofcourse also dependable of your positioning.

Btw I don't think TS4 helps you that much with positioning, yea it's hard to get the ball out, but position right and get the craziest corners isn't easy, you have to be very good in positioning for that. I think it's good they are locked in "moving to the ball" animations because it gives you the feeling he actually responds to the ball.. other than previous tennis games.
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Postby farshad » Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:24

I started to hate this game more and more!
Just when i started to improve really and pick my game , winning some big matches..and learning how to improve and become a better player! battlefield 3 came out! 1 week i haven't played TS4 and now EVERYTHINGS GONE! my timings are crap,which is normal but it was supposed to get better after a few games/points but it never did and i completely lost the tricks and ways to find the best solutions/shots in different positions, im back to the first square.....eighter im an ultra NOOB or this game is just too stupid that you will get out of shape so easy by not playing for a week!
Im so upset about it...i practiced hard,very hard to become a good player and it was paying off....so disappointed to lose it.
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Postby DennieFR1908 » Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:30

farshad wrote:I started to hate this game more and more!
Just when i started to improve really and pick my game , winning some big matches..and learning how to improve and become a better player! battlefield 3 came out! 1 week i haven't played TS4 and now EVERYTHINGS GONE! my timings are crap,which is normal but it was supposed to get better after a few games/points but it never did and i completely lost the tricks and ways to find the best solutions/shots in different positions, im back to the first square.....eighter im an ultra NOOB or this game is just too stupid that you will get out of shape so easy by not playing for a week!
Im so upset about it...i practiced hard,very hard to become a good player and it was paying off....so disappointed to lose it.


lol it's not gone m8.. u just have to reinvent ur game ;) when you found it it will make sense again.
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Postby farshad » Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:39

DennieFR1908 wrote:
lol it's not gone m8.. u just have to reinvent ur game ;) when you found it it will make sense again.

Well my last 3 matches were huge disappointments! 90% of my shots were some high and weak balls, sweet as a peach for my opponents to attack on it and so many other problems...
i hope you are right and i'll find it again soon,the main problem is battlefield, its so addictive :lol:
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Postby djarvik » Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:19

DennieFR1908 wrote:What I describe is not only beginners guide, it's also the basic of tennis. No matter on what level you have to keep the balls deep.


Please spare me this discussion. I think I know enough about tennis, both playing and teaching. This is a very broad statements you make, something along the lines of "put the ball in the basket" when talking about basketball, or "Put the ball in the hole" in golf case. ;)

As for the rest of your post, you don't disagree with me. You say the same thing really...but all it comes down to is "risk button". Why is it so bizarre to have to press a button in a video game? :? Are you not pressing buttons now?

As for TS3 being "all-or-nothing" risk game :lol: you could not be further away from truth. I hit 90% of risk in TS3 and no one would say I played aggressively, I used to play all around and had long rallies all the time. Me thinks you got spooked by the learning curve and never actually got to a point where two players can sustain risk rallies.

Is TS3 a perfect system of risk - no. But it sure as hell beats the no UE no risk of TS4 at representing real tennis.

BTW - nothing personal, if I offended you in previous posts - forgive me. It is just that I have been through this discussions before too many times. It always end up with other party being ignorant and attempting to prove his point despite "agreeing" to degree with mine. Your initial dismissal of Emates post along with a declaration of "what real tennis is" - is what triggered me.

Lets agree to disagree then.
How long you are playing tennis if I may ask? Professionally?
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