Rule Test Tournament #2

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

@Crotatsuya

Each setup is not made equal. There is a reason why you see so many people with very similar setups.

There are only 4 stats people worry about. In order of importance:

Strokes
Power
Serve
Speed

High strokes is a must have. This gives you a leg up in rallies. High power is the next best thing. Makes hitting winners and dominating your opponent a lot easier. After the patch, serving is not as important as it used to be, but it's still up there. Sometimes even when you get perfect returns because the serve was so big your return just floats there, giving your opponent an easy putaway. Speed can play a big role, but when your opponent has high strokes, high power, and a big serve, your 90 speed can seem somewhat slow.

Next up is coach skills. The best skills, imo, in TS4 are:

Monster defense
Topspin invasion/Slice Invasion
Instant rocket
Diesel hard hitter
Reach swings expert
Serve Stick Berserker

(Funny how most 90% of the players "coincidentally" create characters with atleast 1 of those skills.)

There are 2 kinds of characters you see people using the most. Aside from TI/MD, you encounter 80+*3 characters. They come in different variations of atleast 3 of the most important stats 80+ fh/srv/pw, fh/bh/spe, etc. Then there's also the 80+*4, which have 80+ fh/bh/spe/sta, or 80+ fh/bh/srv/pw. You get the gist.

Every wonder why 90% of created characters fit the descriptions above? It's easy. The game allows you to create stacked players that just happen to have points in the stats that matter, and coincidentally many of those stacked players come with the most important skills as well. It makes winning hella easy too.


I would say about 20% of the coaches are too good, with the other 80% being just right. Within the overpowered 20%, a few can be balanced with certain stat restrictions.

In one of your post, you imply that Drew Welch is a balanced coach, and that reflexes are important for powerful basliners.

Drew welch is an 80+*4 coach

fh 90
bh 90
srv 50
vol 40
pw 55
sta 90
sep 85
rf 50
drop shot artist, smell of blood

Are you telling me that setup is balanced, and that all rounder-ish like characters can stand a chance?

Powerful basliners are useless without high reflexes? Really o_O?

You should try and create a wide variety of characters first before trying to make a point. If you're on 360 and still don't believe, then I can give you a setup, 1 of my favorites btw, to use while I use that Drew welch setup I posted above. If all setups have their downsides, as you say, then it shouldn't matter what setup I give you, and you should be able to exploit my "weaknesses". Would you like to play a set?

I find it funny that djarvik mentions LT, inside out. I find myself overusing that button all the time. I don't have overpowerd characters like most people in WT, so I need that extra precision and power to really take advantage in rallies. Most WT players probably don't even remember it exists. I mean they really don't have to when you have high strokes on both wings and high power. Inside out becomes an afterthought.

A little bit more strategy in the normal tour would be a nice addition.

[Rocketsfall]

Isn't the wing stat restriction mainly a way to make it impossible to use the TI/MD coach at level 20?
Personally, I have no problem with two wings in the seventies. I think a huge power stat and one huge wing stat combined with something like 40 - 50 in speed gives more trouble. These characters have a clear power advantage but hardly any speed disadvantage. They get to almost every ball anyway and the high power/wing stats make them able to hit winners from everywhere.
I mean, the ITST rules should leave the elements out where the game fails to give well balanced gameplay.

[Chederer]

i finally finished my player....and i have now made a sim type of player

[RainingAmoeba79]

All Hail CHEDERER!!!!

[Crotatsuya]

@Mihawk

It's actually very exhausting for me to answer these very long posts, but I'll try to while keeping things as short as possible...

So you ask yourself why people are using the stats that fit their game the most? Do I really need to answer that? I think it's kind of self explanatory:
Not everyone wants to play as an allrounder. The game even encourages you to chose one of the 3 playstyles in one way ore another. Sure, you can mix things up a bit, but if you mix it up too much, you have to deal with the fact, that specialized characters will get the better of you. Or do you want to be as good as them from the baseline while also having a good volley stat?
Sounds to me you want to tailor the game to your needs, so your way of playing will be more successful, while others have to change. Ever considered changing your game instead of forcing others to do so?
I thought a SIM tour would be exactly for people like you, why should the "normal" players suffer from that?

Next thing:
You forgot to mention

Fatality, longer,better, Poisoned Slices (I use it myself), Shot Counter and a lot more that are quite useful in the right hands. I think you narrowed it down too much. And these rules will not keep the crappy coaches from being crap. I tell you it will not change a thing as to how people play and what coaches they take. Some skills are better than others, so deal with that as well, there is nothing you can do to improve them, not even with these rules. What you CAN do is to prohibit the usage of coaches AT ALL, that will of course enrage a lot of people (including me) but is the closest thing you can do to get the balance you want. Or for the love of god ban PJQ for normal tour as the one and only rule, start a SIM tour with rules you like, and everyone will be more or less happy.

Unfortunately I'm on PS3, so we won't be able to play. I also stated that it is mainly speed what makes full OBs useless. Maybe useless is the wrong word though, but have you ever used perfectly timed control shots followed by stops against these guys? They can pressure you thats right, but as soon as you make them run for good they will lose. Unfortunately the lag online makes them faster than they actually are sometimes, which is annoying but still not as bad as you say.

And don't tell me what I should do and what not. I put a truckload of time into this game and created a lot of different players. Granted, some are better than others, but thats because the game is designed that way. Each playstyle has a handful of very good coaches that fits their style, Drew Welch being the ultimate DB coach (if you actually plan to be defensive), but its power is 55. I don't know how you skilled the character you wanted me to use, but I can beat that setup with all my 4 setups, and even some more, because with speed of lets say 60 and power at 70 you'll still gain the advantage in rallies unless he uses Drop Shot Artist wisely as well as control shots and slices and everything he has. If your setup can't win against that at all it's not the DB's fault by playing that style, but your own for simply creating a weak player. You can't seriously expect others to dumb themselves down just so you have a chance to compete... Again, thats what I thought the SIM tour was for, in which I'd gladly play with whatever rules you guys come up with, as long as the normal tour isn't affected.

Well that was long again, really hard to argue over such things in a foreign language.

[VMoe86]

I actually wanted to stay out of this discussion, but it reminds me of an online game I played for quite a long time: Grand Slam Tennis on Wii.

Many players complained about Nadal in the first few months after its release: "He is overpowered!", "He is too fast!", "His top spins are too good!" etc.

Allrounders were considered a niche style (there were and still are hardly ANY Federers in the top 100) without a chance against Nadal.

I decided to play as an allrounder from the start (first as created allrounder then as Federer) and I had to put in quite some time to develop the necessary skills to be really successful with that type of player, but in the end I could compete and beat all types of styles.

In Top Spin 4 the TI/MD players seem to take the role of Nadal and currently I'm not good enough (in terms of skill) to judge whether it is a truly superior set up or not. Currently I believe that it is as follows:

If two (extremely?) skilled players play against each other then it does not depend on which style they use - they are competitive in all ways.

If two averagely skilled players verse each other - say, one using a TI/MD and the other one an allrounder - then the TI/MD user has advantages because his type of character is easier to use.

However, even if my claim about the (extremely) well skilled players were true: TI/MD remains an unrealistic set up, which is boring to play against. Therefore it is reasonable to consider rules for a SIM tour and test them.

I haven't tested many different styles at all, actually only two: My first created character, a 6/7/7 allrounder with drop shot artist and volley master (82 FH and 67 BH if I recall it correctly, meets all requirements for the tournament ) and out of curiosity a female TI/MD. Hope to see a few more allrounders.

[RainingAmoeba79]

Il be there with my all rounder!!!! FTW!!!

[jayl0ve]

What is with all the essays??

Maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but....I ain't reading those. Once I see that the post is 10 paragraphs I immediately stop reading and disregard it entirely

BREVITY


Love it...embrace it....demonstrate it

[Crotatsuya]

I actually wanted to stay out of this discussion, but it reminds me of an online game I played for quite a long time: Grand Slam Tennis on Wii.

Many players complained about Nadal in the first few months after its release: "He is overpowered!", "He is too fast!", "His top spins are too good!" etc.

Allrounders were considered a niche style (there were and still are hardly ANY Federers in the top 100) without a chance against Nadal.

I decided to play as an allrounder from the start (first as created allrounder then as Federer) and I had to put in quite some time to develop the necessary skills to be really successful with that type of player, but in the end I could compete and beat all types of styles.

In Top Spin 4 the TI/MD players seem to take the role of Nadal and currently I'm not good enough (in terms of skill) to judge whether it is a truly superior set up or not. Currently I believe that it is as follows:

If two (extremely?) skilled players play against each other then it does not depend on which style they use - they are competitive in all ways.

If two averagely skilled players verse each other - say, one using a TI/MD and the other one an allrounder - then the TI/MD user has advantages because his type of character is easier to use.

However, even if my claim about the (extremely) well skilled players were true: TI/MD remains an unrealistic set up, which is boring to play against. Therefore it is reasonable to consider rules for a SIM tour and test them.

I haven't tested many different styles at all, actually only two: My first created character, a 6/7/7 allrounder with drop shot artist and volley master (82 FH and 67 BH if I recall it correctly, meets all requirements for the tournament ) and out of curiosity a female TI/MD. Hope to see a few more allrounders.

Unfortunately it is in fact the case that the TI/MD setup is superior to any other setup, and if someone actually is extremely skilled AND uses it you always feel to have a disadvantage of some sort since no matter what you do the next ball will land somewhere in the corner or on the line with considerable speed.

[dsavbeast012]

Unfortunately it is in fact the case that the TI/MD setup is superior to any other setup, and if someone actually is extremely skilled AND uses it you always feel to have a disadvantage of some sort since no matter what you do the next ball will land somewhere in the corner or on the line with considerable speed.

Yep, I played the #1 guy on ITST the other day in a 360 tournament. I probably would have lost anyways regardless of the coach, but playing a guy as good as he is + him having the TI/MD skill made it impossible for me to compete w/ a balanced, 'sim' player. Like I said, he's a good player and would likely beat me regardless of coach. But it's perfect when you say TI/MD makes average players good, good players great, and great players virtually unbeatable.

[Saarbrigga]

- One stroke must be 69 or less (Forehand or Backhand)

Hey is it ok if we change 69 to 70 (or make an exception for me)?
Don t matter which coach i use, my forehand/backhand can t be lower as 70.
If not i must create a new player just because of the test tournament and i have already 4 and wouldn t like to delete one.

I guess 69 or 70 isn t that much difference...

[Sure Shank2]

Djarvik, D-man, my brother, answer me this. Can i use a silver coach if it allows me to work within the boundaries you've set for this tourni?

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

@Crotatsuya

This has nothing to do with me. I don't why you said most of what you said, as I was trying to make you understand something else entirely.

The reason why I typed out all that stuff about "The 4 most important stats and the other powerful setups, beside pei jing quah" was to show you that your idea of just banning PJQ, Jon Samala or whoever else would not solve anything. People would go for 80+*3 or 80+*4 characters. That was the point of what I was trying to tell you. It goes from a PJQ dominated tour, to an 80+*3/80+*4 dominated tour, and everyone else who doesn't use one of those setups would be, once again, at a big disadvantage.

The reason the rules state

- Maximum of one stat of 85 and over (not including Volley or Reflex)
- One stroke must be 69 or less (Forehand or Backhand)

is to prevent people from creating 80+*3/80+*4 characters. Especially in the stats that matter the most. With strokes being the most important stat, the "69 or less" helps limit people from going 80+ fh/bh. Even if they have 80+fh/bh 55pw, they'll still be more effective and dominant over someone with 78fh 72bh 65pw.

[Chederer]

my stats as followed: if i am going to play tourneys--i will only use sim setup...i might be a little off on some of these...but once my coach is finished it will give me 3 more on pwr---7 more on fh and 5 more on bh

fh74 pwr69
bh59 stm65
srv66 spd66
vol54 ref47

[djarvik]

- One stroke must be 69 or less (Forehand or Backhand)

Hey is it ok if we change 69 to 70 (or make an exception for me)?
Don t matter which coach i use, my forehand/backhand can t be lower as 70.
If not i must create a new player just because of the test tournament and i have already 4 and wouldn t like to delete one.

I guess 69 or 70 isn t that much difference...

It has to be 69. I understand that 70 is not that much different, but we have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise it go up to 71, 72, 73 and so on

Djarvik, D-man, my brother, answer me this. Can i use a silver coach if it allows me to work within the boundaries you've set for this tourni?

You sure can! There are no coach restrictions in this tournament.