TS4 Sim Rules and Exhibition thread (Hawkeye's Version)

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Postby Hawkeye Miihawk » Fri, 29 Apr 2011 18:55

Updated the first post with new rules.

Q-Spin wrote:-even with a 4 on S&V there will be "some"(not enough to talk of balance) creations that are superior to the others


I've tried multiple combinations, but I can't find any superior setups. Can you plz post the superior setups you are talking about that fit the rules?

The whole point of a sim tour is to make as many viable setups as possible. Not to completely make every setup have a 50-50 chance. That is an impossible goal. No matter what rules are made, there will always be the slightly better setups. It's how much better the good ones are over the rest that matter. Not the fact that some are slightly better than others.

-more rules --> more loss in variety


Yes, its hard to keep it simple and make it work at the same time. Volley has to be a minimum of 50 without any coach bonus, 3 stroke rules, cannot have topspin invasion/monster defense, instant rocket/monster defense. That's the simplest I can make it, while trying to preserve diversity.

-you can create players that break your rules but still are weaker(or on the same level) as players in the rules


Everything cannot be accounted for, and everyone's needs can't be met. Person A says his weaker character doesn't fit the rules, but is balanced. Person B says his stronger character doesn't fit the rules but is balanced. Person C says his all rounder doesn't fit the rules but is also balanced.
You cannot please them all. A middle ground has to be met.

-i dont want to sound too pessimistic, i like alot of your ideas, especially the connection between strokes and power rating


Thanks :D

-i also like venoms idea to see both wings in conjunction, so you dont have two super good wings

My idea:

-only one simple rule: forehand + backhand + 2*power cannot surpass 300 points

-for example at powerlevel 75 you have 150 points left for the wings, 75fh/75bh/75pow as "allrounder", or 85/65/75...

-or 80fh/50bh/85pow as a powerguy with one good wing and one really weak wing to attack

What do you think?


venom400 wrote:it cannot be a sim without a weak wing !

I agree with anything but this , you should give people 150 points to allocate between forehand and backhand so they can chose to have a perfectly balanced 75 to 75 or a killer forehand with a weak backhand .

In Real tennis there is no perfect backhand forehand , without a weak side to attack there will be no sim....

Edit:q-spin idea is right on too!


Funny thing is the new rules address this issue :wink:. It's hard to have a character with 2 strong wings. The best you can get is like 75fh 75bh for an offensive basliner.

8s&v 12ofb
fh 75
bh 75
srv 83
vol 58
pw 73
sta 61
spe 64
rf 61
Inside out master, reach swings expert

They can't have 80fh 70bh because of the 70-79 pw/stroke rule.

On the other end, the most extreme defensive baseliner would be

3s&v 17dfb
fh 82
bh 72
srv 50
vol 51
pw 49
sta 75
spe 96
rf 74
Reach swings expert, passing shot sniper

The extreme offensive baseliner has solid strokes, a good serve, and good power. The extreme defensive baseliner has good strokes, low serve, low power, and high speed. The remaining characters will lie in between with different variations in pw/strokes/speed/serve.

The rules make it hard to have characters with high strokes on both wings. You have to sacrifice something for that, as shown with the extreme defensive baseliner (really low pw/serve). Characters with 80+ wings are still possible, but then the other wing will be really weak. Like these

4/8/8
fh 82
bh 62
srv 79
vol 51
pw 66
sta 71
spe 65
rf 59
slice invasion, wrong foot expert

4/8/8
fh 82
bh 52
srv 69
vol 63
pw 72
sta 71
spe 65
rf 66
Diesel Hard hitter, volley shots artist

Note: I used 2 coaches that are useless in the current system (slice invasion/wrong foot expert, diesel hard hitter/volley shots artist), yet they can still keep up with and beat the extreme ofb/dfb up above.
That's where the beauty lies. The useless coaches can now compete, thus creating the diversity.


@AMAZING ZIZOU, maximo, supinesmokey13

You can make a created characters list if you want but plz do so in another thread. This thread's goal is to try and find simple rules that can work without having to resort to created characters.
It would turn into a convoluted mess of people trying to discuss 2 different ideas.
Now if you want to talk about non created character rules, then plz post them. I'd like to read what you have to say.
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Posts: 327
Joined: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:12

Postby supinesmokey13 » Fri, 29 Apr 2011 20:02

Hawkeye Miihawk wrote:Updated the first post with new rules.

Q-Spin wrote:-even with a 4 on S&V there will be "some"(not enough to talk of balance) creations that are superior to the others


I've tried multiple combinations, but I can't find any superior setups. Can you plz post the superior setups you are talking about that fit the rules?

The whole point of a sim tour is to make as many viable setups as possible. Not to completely make every setup have a 50-50 chance. That is an impossible goal. No matter what rules are made, there will always be the slightly better setups. It's how much better the good ones are over the rest that matter. Not the fact that some are slightly better than others.

-more rules --> more loss in variety


Yes, its hard to keep it simple and make it work at the same time. Volley has to be a minimum of 50 without any coach bonus, 3 stroke rules, cannot have topspin invasion/monster defense, instant rocket/monster defense. That's the simplest I can make it, while trying to preserve diversity.

-you can create players that break your rules but still are weaker(or on the same level) as players in the rules


Everything cannot be accounted for, and everyone's needs can't be met. Person A says his weaker character doesn't fit the rules, but is balanced. Person B says his stronger character doesn't fit the rules but is balanced. Person C says his all rounder doesn't fit the rules but is also balanced.
You cannot please them all. A middle ground has to be met.

-i dont want to sound too pessimistic, i like alot of your ideas, especially the connection between strokes and power rating


Thanks :D

-i also like venoms idea to see both wings in conjunction, so you dont have two super good wings

My idea:

-only one simple rule: forehand + backhand + 2*power cannot surpass 300 points

-for example at powerlevel 75 you have 150 points left for the wings, 75fh/75bh/75pow as "allrounder", or 85/65/75...

-or 80fh/50bh/85pow as a powerguy with one good wing and one really weak wing to attack

What do you think?


venom400 wrote:it cannot be a sim without a weak wing !

I agree with anything but this , you should give people 150 points to allocate between forehand and backhand so they can chose to have a perfectly balanced 75 to 75 or a killer forehand with a weak backhand .

In Real tennis there is no perfect backhand forehand , without a weak side to attack there will be no sim....

Edit:q-spin idea is right on too!


Funny thing is the new rules address this issue :wink:. It's hard to have a character with 2 strong wings. The best you can get is like 75fh 75bh for an offensive basliner.

8s&v 12ofb
fh 75
bh 75
srv 83
vol 58
pw 73
sta 61
spe 64
rf 61
Inside out master, reach swings expert

They can't have 80fh 70bh because of the 70-79 pw/stroke rule.

On the other end, the most extreme defensive baseliner would be

3s&v 17dfb
fh 82
bh 72
srv 50
vol 51
pw 49
sta 75
spe 96
rf 74
Reach swings expert, passing shot sniper

The extreme offensive baseliner has solid strokes, a good serve, and good power. The extreme defensive baseliner has good strokes, low serve, low power, and high speed. The remaining characters will lie in between with different variations in pw/strokes/speed/serve.

The rules make it hard to have characters with high strokes on both wings. You have to sacrifice something for that, as shown with the extreme defensive baseliner (really low pw/serve). Characters with 80+ wings are still possible, but then the other wing will be really weak. Like these

4/8/8
fh 82
bh 62
srv 79
vol 51
pw 66
sta 71
spe 65
rf 59
slice invasion, wrong foot expert

4/8/8
fh 82
bh 52
srv 69
vol 63
pw 72
sta 71
spe 65
rf 66
Diesel Hard hitter, volley shots artist

Note: I used 2 coaches that are useless in the current system (slice invasion/wrong foot expert, diesel hard hitter/volley shots artist), yet they can still keep up with and beat the extreme ofb/dfb up above.
That's where the beauty lies. The useless coaches can now compete, thus creating the diversity.


@AMAZING ZIZOU, maximo, supinesmokey13

You can make a created characters list if you want but plz do so in another thread. This thread's goal is to try and find simple rules that can work without having to resort to created characters.
It would turn into a convoluted mess of people trying to discuss 2 different ideas.
Now if you want to talk about non created character rules, then plz post them. I'd like to read what you have to say.
i like the setups you have their as it is in line with the setups i made i suggested i post so that should the sim tour be up and running my setup would fit the style of play i wanted and the rules but given the direction you going in my setups will be fine for the tour and with the minimum sv level 4 requirement there are ok at will prove effective now lets hope the admin and management might consider trying this sim setup in the mean time just because 2k say they will release a patch doesn't mean management can try out your proposed sim setup
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Posts: 736
Joined: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 22:36

Postby Baghdad Baghdatis » Fri, 29 Apr 2011 21:34

@ Hawkeye

Unfortunately I don't think I am able to trial out custom combinations in the "Coach Calculator" setup by Till because I have an Apple iMac and therefore my understanding is that it will not work due to it being Microsoft Database?

So, I will leave the experimenting with various combinations with you and the rest of the pack who are backing this initiative to progress with the SIM tour (most appreciated btw).

To rap up my key points at this present moment together with references to other comments during this solid thread here are my thoughts:

1) As I have said before (and Venom) customs, in the main, need to have a weak wing. Therefore when you have the option to add the extra 5 points some four times to the wings that is where the process begins to distribute unevenly. A weaker wing in my opinion is anything from 45-65. A stronger wing is anything from 66+. If I saw a wing in excess of say 85 I would expect the weaker wing to be on the lower end of the weak range (as above) - for example 52.

2) However, if a player has 2 x good wings (e.g. 75-85) then this should be offset by a substantial drop in power to the region of 50-60. Anything more in my opinion will make the build too strong.

3) Your original post on your scales are a good start, however as I said before I am just a bit concerned that members would all pick similar setups and the variety of opposition would be reduced. Furthermore I expect that most members would try and max their players to the upper ceiling limits in question - well as much as the TS4 coach distribution would allow.

4) More specifically if, in theory (and I say in theory because I am not able to run through the test in the coach calculator) a member decided yo go for this option:

*Customs with a power rating of 80 points or more
Your storkes (backhand/forehand) cannot surpass 69 points.


Are you telling me that if it is possible to create a custom that is 85 power and 69 on BOTH wings that it is SIM? Not from where I am standing.

5) In respect of power, now whilst power does that seem half as important in TS4 I still think it has the ability, in the right hands, to stifle creativity and reduce enjoyment for TRUE simmers. Like i said before let the normal tour take care of that and I believe that power should, for the benefit of the proposed tour, be reduced to an acceptably agreed level once all testing has taken place. I would expect this to be significantly under the ceiling cap of the normal tour. As before the figure I pluck out of the air is 70-75 and then plenty of points not wasted (in my opinion) on power can be distributed to overlooked stats like volley, reflexes, and speed perhaps.

6) I do think that volley especially should have a minimum level, and whilst I understand from other posts in this thread that achieving a minimum of OB/DB/SV (e.g. 2 min on each) may not be visible and therefore impossible to police it is in full view of a stat being > a certain level, as well all know. Again, no blue stat for volley, 50 + in my opinion.

7) I do agree with Alex (Amazing Zizou) in that TS3 SIM tour run by ITST creating fixes on players for a generous roster. The balance and variety was perfect and whilst it may be more difficult or time consuming to do in TS4 I still believe the concept is achievable. Furthermore I think it is absolutely relevant to mention Alex's point in this thread because hopefully, and I say hopefully, the output and all these discussions and testing in this thread will lead to agreed fixes by the ITST team.

8=Finally as it stands with no "assumed" patches I fully agree that TI/MD coach should be outlawed and it was only my preference, as I said on the other thread that coach skills like instant rocket or diesel server be removed for the purposes of SIM. However, if this further restricts the variety I can live with them being included.

Voila!

Baggy 8)
They call me Baggy...

TS3: No.1 MSS - retired (15 titles)
TS4: No.3 MS - retired (2 titles)
Baghdad Baghdatis
ITST News Reporter
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:50

Postby maximo » Fri, 29 Apr 2011 23:04

Hawkeye Miihawk wrote:Updated the first post with new rules.

Q-Spin wrote:-even with a 4 on S&V there will be "some"(not enough to talk of balance) creations that are superior to the others


I've tried multiple combinations, but I can't find any superior setups. Can you plz post the superior setups you are talking about that fit the rules?

The whole point of a sim tour is to make as many viable setups as possible. Not to completely make every setup have a 50-50 chance. That is an impossible goal. No matter what rules are made, there will always be the slightly better setups. It's how much better the good ones are over the rest that matter. Not the fact that some are slightly better than others.

-more rules --> more loss in variety


Yes, its hard to keep it simple and make it work at the same time. Volley has to be a minimum of 50 without any coach bonus, 3 stroke rules, cannot have topspin invasion/monster defense, instant rocket/monster defense. That's the simplest I can make it, while trying to preserve diversity.

-you can create players that break your rules but still are weaker(or on the same level) as players in the rules


Everything cannot be accounted for, and everyone's needs can't be met. Person A says his weaker character doesn't fit the rules, but is balanced. Person B says his stronger character doesn't fit the rules but is balanced. Person C says his all rounder doesn't fit the rules but is also balanced.
You cannot please them all. A middle ground has to be met.

-i dont want to sound too pessimistic, i like alot of your ideas, especially the connection between strokes and power rating


Thanks :D

-i also like venoms idea to see both wings in conjunction, so you dont have two super good wings

My idea:

-only one simple rule: forehand + backhand + 2*power cannot surpass 300 points

-for example at powerlevel 75 you have 150 points left for the wings, 75fh/75bh/75pow as "allrounder", or 85/65/75...

-or 80fh/50bh/85pow as a powerguy with one good wing and one really weak wing to attack

What do you think?


venom400 wrote:it cannot be a sim without a weak wing !

I agree with anything but this , you should give people 150 points to allocate between forehand and backhand so they can chose to have a perfectly balanced 75 to 75 or a killer forehand with a weak backhand .

In Real tennis there is no perfect backhand forehand , without a weak side to attack there will be no sim....

Edit:q-spin idea is right on too!


Funny thing is the new rules address this issue :wink:. It's hard to have a character with 2 strong wings. The best you can get is like 75fh 75bh for an offensive basliner.

8s&v 12ofb
fh 75
bh 75
srv 83
vol 58
pw 73
sta 61
spe 64
rf 61
Inside out master, reach swings expert

They can't have 80fh 70bh because of the 70-79 pw/stroke rule.

On the other end, the most extreme defensive baseliner would be

3s&v 17dfb
fh 82
bh 72
srv 50
vol 51
pw 49
sta 75
spe 96
rf 74
Reach swings expert, passing shot sniper

The extreme offensive baseliner has solid strokes, a good serve, and good power. The extreme defensive baseliner has good strokes, low serve, low power, and high speed. The remaining characters will lie in between with different variations in pw/strokes/speed/serve.

The rules make it hard to have characters with high strokes on both wings. You have to sacrifice something for that, as shown with the extreme defensive baseliner (really low pw/serve). Characters with 80+ wings are still possible, but then the other wing will be really weak. Like these

4/8/8
fh 82
bh 62
srv 79
vol 51
pw 66
sta 71
spe 65
rf 59
slice invasion, wrong foot expert

4/8/8
fh 82
bh 52
srv 69
vol 63
pw 72
sta 71
spe 65
rf 66
Diesel Hard hitter, volley shots artist

Note: I used 2 coaches that are useless in the current system (slice invasion/wrong foot expert, diesel hard hitter/volley shots artist), yet they can still keep up with and beat the extreme ofb/dfb up above.
That's where the beauty lies. The useless coaches can now compete, thus creating the diversity.


@AMAZING ZIZOU, maximo, supinesmokey13

You can make a created characters list if you want but plz do so in another thread. This thread's goal is to try and find simple rules that can work without having to resort to created characters.
It would turn into a convoluted mess of people trying to discuss 2 different ideas.
Now if you want to talk about non created character rules, then plz post them. I'd like to read what you have to say.

yeah, and if you want find simple rules you have to test the players, so i repeat what i said, if ITST need help in the future with the SIM tour i could help, i haven´t said anything that is not related to this topic.
And in my opinion your idea is nice because you try to create a SIM tour, but is impossible create a tour with these rules.
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Postby supinesmokey13 » Sat, 30 Apr 2011 03:55

Baghdad OrgaSIM wrote:@ Hawkeye

Unfortunately I don't think I am able to trial out custom combinations in the "Coach Calculator" setup by Till because I have an Apple iMac and therefore my understanding is that it will not work due to it being Microsoft Database?

So, I will leave the experimenting with various combinations with you and the rest of the pack who are backing this initiative to progress with the SIM tour (most appreciated btw).

To rap up my key points at this present moment together with references to other comments during this solid thread here are my thoughts:

1) As I have said before (and Venom) customs, in the main, need to have a weak wing. Therefore when you have the option to add the extra 5 points some four times to the wings that is where the process begins to distribute unevenly. A weaker wing in my opinion is anything from 45-65. A stronger wing is anything from 66+. If I saw a wing in excess of say 85 I would expect the weaker wing to be on the lower end of the weak range (as above) - for example 52.

2) However, if a player has 2 x good wings (e.g. 75-85) then this should be offset by a substantial drop in power to the region of 50-60. Anything more in my opinion will make the build too strong.

3) Your original post on your scales are a good start, however as I said before I am just a bit concerned that members would all pick similar setups and the variety of opposition would be reduced. Furthermore I expect that most members would try and max their players to the upper ceiling limits in question - well as much as the TS4 coach distribution would allow.

4) More specifically if, in theory (and I say in theory because I am not able to run through the test in the coach calculator) a member decided yo go for this option:

*Customs with a power rating of 80 points or more
Your storkes (backhand/forehand) cannot surpass 69 points.


Are you telling me that if it is possible to create a custom that is 85 power and 69 on BOTH wings that it is SIM? Not from where I am standing.

5) In respect of power, now whilst power does that seem half as important in TS4 I still think it has the ability, in the right hands, to stifle creativity and reduce enjoyment for TRUE simmers. Like i said before let the normal tour take care of that and I believe that power should, for the benefit of the proposed tour, be reduced to an acceptably agreed level once all testing has taken place. I would expect this to be significantly under the ceiling cap of the normal tour. As before the figure I pluck out of the air is 70-75 and then plenty of points not wasted (in my opinion) on power can be distributed to overlooked stats like volley, reflexes, and speed perhaps.

6) I do think that volley especially should have a minimum level, and whilst I understand from other posts in this thread that achieving a minimum of OB/DB/SV (e.g. 2 min on each) may not be visible and therefore impossible to police it is in full view of a stat being > a certain level, as well all know. Again, no blue stat for volley, 50 + in my opinion.

7) I do agree with Alex (Amazing Zizou) in that TS3 SIM tour run by ITST creating fixes on players for a generous roster. The balance and variety was perfect and whilst it may be more difficult or time consuming to do in TS4 I still believe the concept is achievable. Furthermore I think it is absolutely relevant to mention Alex's point in this thread because hopefully, and I say hopefully, the output and all these discussions and testing in this thread will lead to agreed fixes by the ITST team.

8=Finally as it stands with no "assumed" patches I fully agree that TI/MD coach should be outlawed and it was only my preference, as I said on the other thread that coach skills like instant rocket or diesel server be removed for the purposes of SIM. However, if this further restricts the variety I can live with them being included.

Voila!

Baggy 8)
i still think that 69 strokes + 80 power is a bit overpowered because in theory two strengths and red power that will definitely become the dominant setup so i 70-75 would be best in my opinion also has a max level for SV and DFB been established yet
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Postby jayl0ve » Sat, 30 Apr 2011 04:02

Make sure the hypotenuse of the SV/DF/OFB trifecta corresponds to the squared ratio of all possible deficits in my butthole
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Postby Baghdad Baghdatis » Sat, 30 Apr 2011 11:04

supinesmokey13 wrote:i still think that 69 strokes + 80 power is a bit overpowered because in theory two strengths and red power that will definitely become the dominant setup so i 70-75 would be best in my opinion also has a max level for SV and DFB been established yet


Yeah which exactly what I was meaning when I said it is not very SIM at all i.e. too overpowered and no weakness in the main strokes (e.g. FH, BH, POW).

I agree with the 70-75 max as power but I don't think a minimum of SV and DFB has been established because previous comments mentioned that it is not visible to see what the breakdown of OFB/DFB/SV is for your opponent. So I think the view was that it is impossible to police? Therefore it needs to be via a minimum level for certain stats like 50> for volley and 50> for reflexes for example
They call me Baggy...

TS3: No.1 MSS - retired (15 titles)
TS4: No.3 MS - retired (2 titles)
Baghdad Baghdatis
ITST News Reporter
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:50

Postby Baghdad Baghdatis » Sat, 30 Apr 2011 11:05

jayl0ve wrote:Make sure the hypotenuse of the SV/DF/OFB trifecta corresponds to the squared ratio of all possible deficits in my butthole


:yawn
They call me Baggy...

TS3: No.1 MSS - retired (15 titles)
TS4: No.3 MS - retired (2 titles)
Baghdad Baghdatis
ITST News Reporter
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:50

Postby jayl0ve » Sat, 30 Apr 2011 12:21

:|
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Postby Dynushi » Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:00

hi there, i'm new to this but my two cents may sound quitegood.

i like the idea of setting up restrictions on both wings and power but i think this should operate as a backround for the simplified, seeable (is that actually a word?) rules that have to be there. i don't wanna sit there with my calculator when creating a player!

So...with the backround of having like 300 points for power*2+fh+bh you can set up very simple rules as following.(after having someone calculate all this, which would be lots of work):

Allowed:

(just for example)

5/10/5 with Trainer A,B,C,D
6/9/5 with Trainer A,C,E
7/8/5 with Trainer B,F,H
5/11/4 with Trainer H,I,C

and so on...

This system would meet your theoretical wings and power calculation together with lots of (preset) diversity plus its simple enough for just every one (including me ;-) ) to use.

What do u guys think of it?
" Tennis is a psychological sport, you have to keep a clear head. That is why I stopped playing! "
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Postby Gahan1990 » Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:17

http://www.intertopspintour.net/forum/v ... 722#192722
Hawkeye Miihawk wrote:@Gahan
Actually if you make changes to your character he would be allowed going by my rules. Making your fh/bh even would do the job.

fh 69
bh 69
srv 79
vol 39
pw 84
sta 83
spe 70
rf 47

You could also make some stat tweaks that fit within my rules as well since the coach requires a minimum of 6ofb and 6dfb. 2s&v 10ofb 8dfb yielding:

fh 70
bh 60
srv 81
vol 46
pw 78
sta 79
spe 73
rf 53

or any other combination of stats you could come up with.

Yeah my rules wouldn't allow the first 2, or the 3rd, but you can create a lite version of the third that would fit. The coach Dilan Cordero also gives focus service and serve stick berserker. He has a requirement of 4s&v 4ofb. Except unlike Stephan Babb, who gives 45 points, he gives 35pts. You could use 6s&v 14ofb

fh 66
bh 61
srv 95
vol 60
pw 83
sta 62
spe 47
fr 61

This character is definitley beatable and I personally don't see anything wrong with him.

All I'm asking for is that your strokes and power fit 3 criterias, while having a cap at 14ofb/dfb. I don't care how big your serve and power are, as long as you don't have huge power and huge strokes. While at the same time eliminating the extreme ofbs/dfbs so the middle men can compete. With the obvious elimination of Pei Jing Quah.


I'd just had the 3 players as an example to think about have letting in people with more then 14 in DFB/OFB

But then they have fill up with S&V and not with OFB or DFB when they have DFB or OFB at the moment and having the maximal stat for DFB or OFB, tied up with the coach you use so you can't have a level15 coach with 18 in OFB as it should have to be at 15OFB/5S&V

I just thought about having it just for OFB players as I think with OFB they have a lot of stamina and speed that doesn't count that much
With S&V they wouldn't gain that much stamina as they would with higher OFB, but I think even DFB players should fill up with S&V

My idea behind this is having a bit more diversity with these rules while having a fair tour with diffrent players, no obvious "too strong" player

So my rule suggestion would be:
- The best stat over 14 should be just to the point to gain a coach with maximum in 18 (example: Ivan Zajic, 15 in OFB is required, so if you use this coach, the maximum in OFB has to be 15 and the rest have to be filled up with S&V)

Maybe I would even make this as a primary rule without having at the moment looked at every coach to ban or to figure out new rules

Even if I would put up my rule with your strokes/power rule (and would left out the others, while I would still ban PJQ), there is enough room for your rules to work as an example:

18OFB/2S&V Alba Loureiro
FH/BH 78 to fit with your strokes rule
Serve 85
Volley 48
Power 77
Stamina 71
Speed 48
Reflexes 65

But for David Gallo (17OFB/3S&V) it wouldn't work out with the Strokes (the strokes close to the strokes rule 5 in FH and 15 in BH)
FH 72
BH 73
Serve 90
Volley 51
Power 89
Stamina 72
Speed 45
Reflexes 58

If there is a SIM Tour and I have XBL Gold, I would create a new character that would fit the "SIM" requirements, but I would like to play more with my player I played many games with than creating new players as I think my character isn't overpowered with 74FH and 84 in Power as I just get crushed by players that are faster, a bit better in stamina and having way better strokes then mine (both red) and even that would be some kind of "SIM" in my opinion
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Postby djarvik » Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:26

Dynushi wrote:hi there, i'm new to this but my two cents may sound quitegood.

i like the idea of setting up restrictions on both wings and power but i think this should operate as a backround for the simplified, seeable (is that actually a word?) rules that have to be there. i don't wanna sit there with my calculator when creating a player!

So...with the backround of having like 300 points for power*2+fh+bh you can set up very simple rules as following.(after having someone calculate all this, which would be lots of work):

Allowed:

(just for example)

5/10/5 with Trainer A,B,C,D
6/9/5 with Trainer A,C,E
7/8/5 with Trainer B,F,H
5/11/4 with Trainer H,I,C

and so on...

This system would meet your theoretical wings and power calculation together with lots of (preset) diversity plus its simple enough for just every one (including me ;-) ) to use.

What do u guys think of it?


Slight problem ;) You cannot see the levels of your opponent. So checking if he confirms to the rules will be imposable.
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Postby Dynushi » Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:32

ha :-) f*** :D
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Postby Hawkeye Miihawk » Sat, 30 Apr 2011 17:01

lol, I just realized i made a mistake on the final character I posted. He would have
fh 77
bh 57
pw 72

maximo wrote: yeah, and if you want find simple rules you have to test the players, so i repeat what i said, if ITST need help in the future with the SIM tour i could help, i haven´t said anything that is not related to this topic.
And in my opinion your idea is nice because you try to create a SIM tour, but is impossible create a tour with these rules.


Why do you think it's impossible to create a sim tour with these rules? Do you have a solution of your own? Besides created characters.

Baghdad OrgaSIM wrote: 1) As I have said before (and Venom) customs, in the main, need to have a weak wing. Therefore when you have the option to add the extra 5 points some four times to the wings that is where the process begins to distribute unevenly. A weaker wing in my opinion is anything from 45-65. A stronger wing is anything from 66+. If I saw a wing in excess of say 85 I would expect the weaker wing to be on the lower end of the weak range (as above) - for example 52.


There are players in real life who have almost "equal" wings (djokovic, agassi, davydenko, etc). Not all players have weak wings. I don't believe everyone should be forced to have a weak wing. They can choose to have a strong and weak stroke, or 2 solid strokes depending on their power rating. Don't forget you also have to take what 2 skills they have into consideration. You can have a character that appears weak just by looking at the stats, but when you add something like longer!better! (which makes their angles more extreme and they start to paint the lines over time) they get better.
It's very hard to have 2 strong wings with these rules. Not only do you have to have a minimum of 50 volley, but the stroke restrictions prevent it as well.

2) However, if a player has 2 x good wings (e.g. 75-85) then this should be offset by a substantial drop in power to the region of 50-60. Anything more in my opinion will make the build too strong.


The highest combination I've found was 81fh 71bh 67pw. This is another variation of an offensive baseliner. The difference here is unlike WT the offensive baseliners don't have 80+pw with 80+strokes with a huge serve. This character would have a lot of trouble hitting through defensive baseliners.

3) Your original post on your scales are a good start, however as I said before I am just a bit concerned that members would all pick similar setups and the variety of opposition would be reduced. Furthermore I expect that most members would try and max their players to the upper ceiling limits in question - well as much as the TS4 coach distribution would allow.


There's no way to know if people would pick similar setups or not. The reason why you see similar setups in WT is because those setups are so strong. I don't know if there will be a setup with these rules that trumps the others. That's why every time someone says something about how a setup could be stronger, I ask them to post it. So we can see, discuss, and test.


4) More specifically if, in theory (and I say in theory because I am not able to run through the test in the coach calculator) a member decided yo go for this option:

*Customs with a power rating of 80 points or more
Your storkes (backhand/forehand) cannot surpass 69 points.


Are you telling me that if it is possible to create a custom that is 85 power and 69 on BOTH wings that it is SIM? Not from where I am standing.


supinesmokey13 wrote: i still think that 69 strokes + 80 power is a bit overpowered because in theory two strengths and red power that will definitely become the dominant setup so i 70-75 would be best in my opinion also has a max level for SV and DFB been established yet


I don't want to eliminate big servers, that is a playstyle after all. Some might not like it, that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. I don't like extremely fast defensive baseliners cause they get everything back, but others do.
Big servers don't get ace after ace anymore after the patch. So no one has to worry about that. They should also be able to rally, but not in line with baseliners. That's why their strokes don't surpass 69. They essentially become like s&vers. They are good at what they do best, but when it comes to baseline rallies they have some trouble.
I created a character similar to this a long time ago. Lol, I ended up testing him against djarvik's Gasquet and lost. Yeah, my serve was good. Problem is because your strokes are low, you can't angle people off like they can you, and winning rallies, although possible, is tough.
This is the same thing all serve and volleyers experience. They don't toss away rallies because they suck at rallying, it's because s&vers don't have good strokes.
Now as a big server your serve is key, and how good your 1-2 punch is will determine your success. You can't get away with 80-90 strokes, like world tour, to help pull you through anymore.
We can always test it out in an exhibition baggy/supinesmokey13(if you're on 360). That's also what this thread is for. I'll create a baseliner, and you a big server. I'll also create a baseliner with a "useless" coach as well to see how "good" the useless coaches are now. Then we post our observations :).

5) In respect of power, now whilst power does that seem half as important in TS4 I still think it has the ability, in the right hands, to stifle creativity and reduce enjoyment for TRUE simmers. Like i said before let the normal tour take care of that and I believe that power should, for the benefit of the proposed tour, be reduced to an acceptably agreed level once all testing has taken place. I would expect this to be significantly under the ceiling cap of the normal tour. As before the figure I pluck out of the air is 70-75 and then plenty of points not wasted (in my opinion) on power can be distributed to overlooked stats like volley, reflexes, and speed perhaps.


Power isn't necessarily what stifles creativity. It's a combination of high power, high strokes, and big serve. Which isn't possible with these rules. Till this day, I haven't created a character with power over 70. If it were up to me no character would have a power over 70, but this has to be a compromise. Some people like having monster serves, nothing wrong with that. If anything that's part of the diversity.
The problem arises when those monster serve characters are going toe to toe with baseliners, which is made difficult with a max at 69 (atleast in theory). It's hard to have high serve and power when a cap of 70-75 is put on power. I'm not talking about a s&ver either. There will be nothing to differentiate a big server from a solid offensive baseliner. The offensive baseliner I posted, with 75fh 75bh 83srv 73pw, is very solid, but if there is a cap then what would the stats be for a big server? Would the "no strokes more than 69 apply to him"? If yes, then offensive baseliners can have good strokes, power, and serve, and a big server will have lower strokes, same power as ofbs, and a slightly better serve? Why create a big server then when offensive baseliners are better?
There should be a difference.

6) I do think that volley especially should have a minimum level, and whilst I understand from other posts in this thread that achieving a minimum of OB/DB/SV (e.g. 2 min on each) may not be visible and therefore impossible to police it is in full view of a stat being > a certain level, as well all know. Again, no blue stat for volley, 50 + in my opinion.


There is a minimum level for volley. It must be atleast 50 without any coach attribute.

8=Finally as it stands with no "assumed" patches I fully agree that TI/MD coach should be outlawed and it was only my preference, as I said on the other thread that coach skills like instant rocket or diesel server be removed for the purposes of SIM. However, if this further restricts the variety I can live with them being included.
Voila!

Baggy 8)


Even if patches come, there's no way to tell how balanced the game will be. A sim tour can always exist beside a normal tour. It will be updated to adjust to any possible changes that are made.


Keep'em coming so we can try and find any loopholes in the rules and adjust accordingly :), but most of all testing is key. Real life application is always > theory talk. That's why I'm willing to play any of you with these rules to test out multiple combinations. You can create these characters and test drive them in WT. Lol, ofcourse they won't be successful, but there might be a couple WT players with characters that fit these rules, so after you play them you can also post your observations as well. I've run into a few, and I'm sure you guys have too. Any comments on match play is better than none.
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Postby maximo » Sat, 30 Apr 2011 18:17

in my opinion there are too many rules, too many factors to consider, i don´t want use the calculator every time i´m going to play for checking if my rival is using an allowed player.
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