TS4 Matchups

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

Shot counter beat Instant Rocket, Diesel Hard Hitter, and powerful players in general.
You simply use their power against them. If all they are using are powerfuly flat shots, then never stray away from flat finesse. If they give you different shots, then play accordingly. You mainly want to use it on powerful shots, because that's when it works best.

I'll try and post a couple more stuff if I remember.

[C4iLL]

There are a lot of build which can be good against MD/TI, it just needs inspiration, and experimentation.

There are a lot of underestimated skills...

[djarvik]

There are a lot of build which can be good against MD/TI, it just needs inspiration, and experimentation.

There are a lot of underestimated skills...

Care to share? ...after all, you posting in a thread that directly calls for it

[Mack2300]

Going by further matches played, Samala definitely seems to be the coach who is meant to counter Quah.

[Coolhand Texas]

who is samala?

[tigerofintegrity]

Going by further matches played, Samala definitely seems to be the coach who is meant to counter Quah.

I like Samala better than Quah actually. I think it's stronger because it's more versatile and matches up well with just about every other build. FH+BH sit reasonably at the 80 mark and easily matches anyone in rallies. The big advantage it has over TI/MD is that Instant Rocket allows this build to attack better and the far better speed/stamina rating allows it to defend better and deal with power players better.

[C4iLL]

As someone says on the topic, the combo "Serv / Def" is for instance really efficient against TI/MD. If you have good timing, and an experience about real tennis, you know when you have to finish the point at the net, and that introduces doubt in the head of the TI/MD guy.

This game is not just about setup, it's also about psychology : and some original setup, not really "overpowered", but original like the s&v/def combo, can disrupt their habits.

When you come at the net once in three with some average FH and BH, and some appropriate skills to be efficient at the net, you can see that it influences their style, and they begin to make more strategy errors in service return or things like that, because they don't know what you will do

Of course, it's not easy to beat these guys with that style (because you have less power, less FH/BH), but it's possible, and really fun !

[tigerofintegrity]

But even Nadal has a weak side ...

And Nadal does have weakness , his weakness is that he doesn't have flat shots , having him run forever for all the balls.

Then the problem seems to be that the stat system in this game is not complex enough. There aren't many stat categories in this game and many of them are linked together because of the way you level up so it's pretty much impossible to have high power but low stamina. So there isn't a huge amount of wildly different combinations possible which means certain weaknesses don't really show up.

If the game also had separate stats for flat shots, top spin shots and slice shots then that would allow for more customisability, more variety and would ensure that there are more weaknesses as you can't level up everything together. That would allow Nadal to have a really good top spin shot but weaker flat and slice shots so his weaknesses, as you point out, would show up.

I think the way forward for a more realistic tennis game is to have a more complex stat system. The only way to increase simulation of realism is to incorporate a system that describes as many real life variables as possible. For example, mentality plays a big part of tennis. A 'focus stat' would allow players with more skill points invested in it to play better (more accurate shots, less errors, move faster, hit harder... a combination of traits depending on how the hypothetical game plays) during important points (i.e. break points, set points etc.) whilst a low investment of skill points ends up in your character playing poorly in important points.

Games in general is governed by maths so to improve realism we need more maths behind the game that simulates real life.

Also,

It sounds like you defend this set up because you play with it , but wouldn't you want this game to have more than one set up that worked?

I've played with a lot of builds before but I don't and have never played with TI/MD before. I defend it (to a certain degree) not because I like it but because I don't have the problem of losing to it all the time so I guess it's not an immediate concern for me. I do however dislike how too many people use it and would like a lot more variety on the tour like you suggest. But I don't think the reason behind this is because TI/MD is the ultimate invincible build that can't be beaten by any other build. It's more likely because people are just sheep and follow whatever the most popular trend is that has been proven to work. Doesn't mean it's the only one that works or the one that works best though.

[polakis]

Its true...

I changed my player to instant rocket/monster defense and now i have 30-5 wins vs ti/md players...

You must adapt to each player and his skills to counter them...

Time to pickup some cups next week to be in top 10 of lifetime world tour ranks. Currently No22...

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

I went on a skills testing spree a few days ago. Please correct me if I'm wrong. These are my findings

Highly Flammable
In my attempt to find out what "on fire" means, I played countless matches going up 4 pts or more to see if I could spot the difference from the character before and after the streak. It seems like it makes your shots more proficient. Not in the "smell of blood" way, but in the topspin/slice invasion way. They get good, but not smell of blood good. Once I was on the streak, I could usually maintain the streak for a while, sometimes not losing a single pt after the streak and going on to win the match, because of how proficient your strokes become. Your angles become a bit more extreme, and you paint the lines constantly. It's practically a momentum skill that stays with you until the set it over as long as you can maintain the streak. Which is where the problem lies.
I personally like it. If only they lowered it to 3pts or more. 4pts in a row is a bit tough against a good opponent, and when you lose it, which is pretty easy, it's too hard get back. This skill, imo, is best in the hands of an offensive baseliner.

Longer! Better!
I like this skill. Problem is it's hard to maintain long rallies when everyone in WT is blasting away, or pulling you 20ft out wide with TI/MD. It's a good skill for people with decent strokes as they get better over time, it's good for defensive baseliners, and it's also good against defensive baseliers. It's makes your angles more extreme and your shots come closer to or paint the lines. In a sim tour I can see this skill working, but in WT you get blasted off way too quickly to get anything going. I don't know the minimum number or strokes required before you really start seeing the difference, but you'll know when you get there.

I'll try diesel returner, approach shots expert, and spin serve master next. Will report my findings when done .

[VillaJ100]

I agree tiger. I would like to see as many skills for tennis players on Top Spin as skills on players on NBA 2k11, for example. I wanna see how good federer's topspin backhand return is compared to his forehand slice return.

You could even keep the main segments for stat ie 'Volley - 86" as an average. but you could click on that and see a breakdown of whats what:- Fh low volley 91, Bh low volley 93, Fh finesse volley 84, Bh finesse volley 86, diving volley 89, Fh normal volley 90, Bh normal volley 83, fh power volley 82, Bh power volley 75, smash 88, backhand smash 79, Fh drop volley 84, Bh drop volley 88

In a minute i've created 13 more rating subcategories, with corresponding ratings. If you thought about it more you could create more, and this is just for one stat: - Volley.

[tigerofintegrity]

I agree tiger. I would like to see as many skills for tennis players on Top Spin as skills on players on NBA 2k11, for example. I wanna see how good federer's topspin backhand return is compared to his forehand slice return.

You could even keep the main segments for stat ie 'Volley - 86" as an average. but you could click on that and see a breakdown of whats what:- Fh low volley 91, Bh low volley 93, Fh finesse volley 84, Bh finesse volley 86, diving volley 89, Fh normal volley 90, Bh normal volley 83, fh power volley 82, Bh power volley 75, smash 88, backhand smash 79, Fh drop volley 84, Bh drop volley 88

In a minute i've created 13 more rating subcategories, with corresponding ratings. If you thought about it more you could create more, and this is just for one stat: - Volley.

That's the thing. The only way to make the game closer to real life is to describe more variables - i.e. more stats. However, like you said, you already just broke volley up into a load of categories. That's pretty deep already but as you acknowledge, it can go even deeper and be more realistic. The problem is, the more complex your stat system becomes, the less accessible it is to non-hardcore tennis game fans. So the problem is where does the ideal equilibrium lie?

[supinesmokey13]

I agree tiger. I would like to see as many skills for tennis players on Top Spin as skills on players on NBA 2k11, for example. I wanna see how good federer's topspin backhand return is compared to his forehand slice return.

You could even keep the main segments for stat ie 'Volley - 86" as an average. but you could click on that and see a breakdown of whats what:- Fh low volley 91, Bh low volley 93, Fh finesse volley 84, Bh finesse volley 86, diving volley 89, Fh normal volley 90, Bh normal volley 83, fh power volley 82, Bh power volley 75, smash 88, backhand smash 79, Fh drop volley 84, Bh drop volley 88

In a minute i've created 13 more rating subcategories, with corresponding ratings. If you thought about it more you could create more, and this is just for one stat: - Volley.

That's thit has been done in fifa games and it works successfully the only thing making sure the controls are not too hard to pick up and the depth is somewhat accessible once you master the controls and question is is 2K will to put the amount of time and effort it takes to do this fifa did and are indisputably the no. 1 football game out if top spin go successfully simulate real tennis with easy to learn controls they will leave VT eating their dust they better doit soon cos when Ea step in to the conversation it fould be a rap looking at grand slam tennis

[supinesmokey13]

My all rounder's stats
fh 80
bh 69
srv 70
vol 53
pw 64
sta 74
spe 70
rf 65
Poisoned slices, smell of blood

Hybrid
fh 72
bh 62
srv 71
vol 75
pw 52
sta 73
spe 70
rf 70
Topspin invasion, inside out master

I like my hybrid a lot. Once he gets the advantage in a rally, he can end points very quickly at net. I can also s&v, but not too much cause he isn't a true s&ver. Although at times I forget that and go into s&v mode. Your wrong with 75 in volley 70 reflex and speed. not to mention serve 71 you can serve volley quite as mush as you want providing you serve well and time your volleys right

Instant rocket - topspin/slice invasion (can also beat reach swings expert but is tough)
Yes, this is 100% correct. In the beginning, when my def baseliner had 83spe 95sta slice invasion and reach swings expert, instant rocket characters gave me a lot of trouble. I was really fast, and if not for reach swings expert I would have lost a ton of those matches. Slice invasion didn't do much cause they reached full power so easily, and could end the point before I had the chance to capitalize on slice invasion. My current def baseliner has topspin invasion, and instant rocket guys still give me trouble. lol you can never get topspin invasion powered up cause you're too busy running.

Monster defense - smell of blood
Correct. When I switched coaches for my all rounder, I was like "uhhh smell of blood? I guess that's the useless skill for this coach". I thought poisoned slices would be the better one, lol was I wrong. All of a sudden I find that I'm holding serve and breaking serve a lot easier. I knew what the skill did, but I didn't think it made your shots that good . It completely nullified monster defense. Yes they get a bonus when I have game point, but the kind of shots you hit at game point with smell of blood are 10 times greater than the kind of shots they hit with monster defense. Your angle, precision, and power increase 10 folds. It doesn't matter what skill you have, when I have game point and we get into a rally 98% of the time I will win it. Unless you s&v. This is perfect for monster defense, which is a comeback skill.

Semi-volley king - deep shots
This skill was tailor made for people who like to hit deep baseline shots during rallies. Be it with topspin/slice invasion, instant rocket, etc or just regular deep shots. I ran into someone with this skill a while back. I was using my all rounder who had shot counter/return serve counter back then. I used my usual "hit deep topspin shots to baseline" strategy. To my surprise he handled them so well and just kept smacking the ball left and right. He refused to move back beyond the baseline, taking the ball on the rise every time. I though his timing was godly cause everything was coming back to me with so much pace at what seemed like perfectly timed shots. He had the coach Roman Neuwith (Semi volley king/shot counter). I was like "how is he able to get so much pace, precision, and angle when the ball is practically landing at his feet?". It wasn't until right before I lost that I realised what semi volley king was smh.


Lol, I'll stop right there so this thread doesn't turn into something else, but I think you should create a thread like that djarvik. It'll help the community, and some people might be willing to try out new styles if they know what beats what. Right now people aren't experimenting because of Pei Jing Quah. TI/MD is still king. If a coach had a combination of 2 of these skills, instant rocket - smell of blood - fatality, then Pei Jing Quah would be 2nd best. Unfortunately a coach like that doesn't exist. Yes, my new all rounder is better against TI/MD characters, as their MD is useless when I have game point. The problem is he still has to deal with TI/MD during non game point moments, and the path to getting that break point is still very tough. As you said, those skills separately only stop it partially, but still not enough. Quite sad really, cause TS4, despite it's many flaws, can be a lot of fun when people branch out.

[SBR Ironik]

Hey !

Do you guys know how the passing shot sniper works ?

I'm trying to find a way against S&V setups ...