The Players.

[C4iLL]

Berdych, nobody really likes him in real life, it's why nobody takes him : but that doesn't mean he has bad stats I think.

Same thing with Tsonga : maybe he has been picked 5 times, but it's surely not because of his stats... Surely because of his popularity.

Now about Tsonga, you're right he's slow, but he's not really fast too in real life. I think it would be more realistic to increase his power rather than his speed. He's among the most powerful guy with Berdych, Del Potro Isner.

These 4 guys should have approximately the same power characteristics.

To continue with Tsonga, he makes the points, and make the faults. He can do 60 UE in a match (against Nishikori @AO) and be close to win it because of his winners.

So in my opinion he deserves a great power, but a low regularity (for instance against Simon @Monte Carlo, he always lost the long rallies because of UE).

[L Sanchez MD]

Berdych, nobody really likes him in real life, it's why nobody takes him : but that doesn't mean he has bad stats I think.

Same thing with Tsonga : maybe he has been picked 5 times, but it's surely not because of his stats... Surely because of his popularity.

Now about Tsonga, you're right he's slow, but he's not really fast too in real life. I think it would be more realistic to increase his power rather than his speed. He's among the most powerful guy with Berdych, Del Potro Isner.

These 4 guys should have approximately the same power characteristics.

To continue with Tsonga, he makes the points, and make the faults. He can do 60 UE in a match (against Nishikori @AO) and be close to win it because of his winners.

So in my opinion he deserves a great power, but a low regularity (for instance against Simon @Monte Carlo, he always lost the long rallies because of UE).

Good points.
People seem to forget that Tsonga is a BIG guy, and doesn't move so fast compared with the top 3.

[Corbon]

Is there any way to see the player roster and stats even if you only have the demo?

[C4iLL]

Hummm.. I don't think so. Maybe we should write it here to discuss about that ?

[djarvik]

That is all great stuff guys. Good feedback indeed.

If I may, a few things to keep in mind:

- The tour just started and it is still rather small. That is the main reason some players are not being chosen. We expect to have the top 4 be chosen a lot. That is normal. What we hoping for is a few players, "the specialists" if you will, to chose and stick and learn to play with other players. This will give them a slight edge as they will be using a player that opponent is not only unfamiliar with, but also cannot use himself. That is a major physiological factor.

- Another thing to keep in mind, lets try and stay away from discussing "numbers". This will only lead to arguments and we will never settle. There is no proper way to put stats in numbers so we estimate as well as we can based on a few factors, some of them are the animations, other stats, balance of the roster etc.

- ...that leads me to the next point, as tempting as it is to point out how "in real life" some stats of some player should be this and that, it simply doesn't work in online gaming. There has to be some sort of "formula", some sort of "order". For now is as follows:

Top 4 - tier one. This tier is defined by these players being clearly better overall then the rest.

The challengers - tier two. These are guys that can not only bother, but win tier one players, but their game play heavily depends on one stat category. They are the Bi Servers, the Power Baseliners, The Rabbit Runners etc.

The Specialists - tier three. These are players that on paper clearly weaker then first two tiers, within reason. These are players that don't have a clear game plan or a clear area where they excel. But that also gives them a bit of an advantage. They are not as familiar to the opponent and while not being better on paper, can still do damage and win matches if played right. Their strength are the players navigating them and the element of surprise as well as physiological pressure.

This is the philosophy we are using to build successful roster. We can then tweak things to make sure it works the way it is designed.

When commenting on the player, be sure to realize where he fits in the master plan and comment based on his place.

Thanks!

[Tamthewasp]

Djarvik,you talk a lot but still I do not see Elana Baltacha. Why?

[djarvik]

Ignore the coke-head


Anyone tried Dimitrov? I found him to be a very good baseliner. Clean strokes, pretty quick. Had a blast destroying Federer on Pro 1 yesterday

[VMoe86]

Anyone tried Dimitrov? I found him to be a very good baseliner. Clean strokes, pretty quick. Had a blast destroying Federer on Pro 1 yesterday

I tried him offline a bit, he is definitely a good baseliner: Powerful off both wings, consistency quite solid and same goes for his precision. He also has a rather good serve. And his speed makes him an interesting choice.

[VMoe86]

Since I chose Llodra for the BMW Open and my opponent Ferrer I tried that match-up on the clay courts of Barcelona (Master 1/Sim controls). In the first couple of sets I tried finding a good gameplan (I have played maybe two or three times as Llodra before) and lost 1-6, 1-6, 1-6. But then I finally found out how to play well as Llodra.

1. I only hit b1 serves on first serves and on second serves mostly b2, but also some b1.

2. I rarely approached the net directly after the serve, but rather on the second shot (many returns were quite short). Since Ferrer's attacks are not too dangerous I could stay back on some points and wait for a good moment to approach.

3. I took balls early with b1 or sliced to make my way forward easier. Once at the net, it was not too difficult because Llodra has this great volley skills, a very good smash and solid speed so that he can retreat to get some lobs.

I was gutted to have lost 6-7, but then I gave it another shot this morning and won a 3-setter 6-3, 6-4.

I also tried Federer against Nadal on the same court and same difficulty. It was utterly boring, because I could hit b1 most of the time and run down almost everything Nadal threw at me. I could grind out Nadal with Federer. Nadal's stamina depleted faster than mine, but at some point it is rather luck who is going make that error. There was one 73 shot rally that way, one rally around 50 shots if I remember it correctly. I won 7-6, but the match felt wrong: I made 12 errors in total, while Nadal alone made 15 backhand errors and I could keep balls deep even on my backhand side. When I play as Nadal against Federer I lose with scores like 3-6 and also have more problems on the backhand side than I have with Federer.

[Elias]

Well, Ugadalou i think did a good resume. as well other posts i agree about Tsonga power that should be more significative @ FH.

More generally, i think a better balance should be found among the whole roster, about the power & spin stats, and the way they interact.
One important thing that should be preserved for each char in the roster should be the ability to score a winner. For some char it's a breeze and for some others it's too difficult or almost impossible due to high top spin.
I think maybe the top spin range should be reduced, maybe using a max value like 80% for nadal, and lowering other heavy lifters values accordingly.

In managmes tour lots of players play with like 90% power and 0% top spin (...) always seeking for the fastest shots (we are not getting there but i just want to mention, that faster shots in TE is a better weapon than spin, as long as the players are experienced with the game, and they play with sim controls).

It's true that high top spin shot can cause some trouble but most experienced movers will send it back again and again and will finally kill you with a good flat stroke. (at least from my own experience but i still have only like 6 month of play i'm not a TE veteran).

As an example we played very, very long rallies with Eliomelma in Barcelonna (nadal vs nadal), the match lasted more than 1 hour. at some point we had no more stamina and where just moonballing top spin shots at center, and finally one of us just hitted the wind missing the ball, probably hypnotized and falling asleep Nadal best weapon to finish the point shouldn't be to take the net.

Though it would be much different if we used Elite controls. This would shorten some rallies due to placement errors more often. But this control scheme would also probably put off the beginners. Therefore i suggest for the future to keep sim controls for small tourneys like challengers, atp250,and use Elite controls for larger tournaments. Or maybe another choice could be Using the Elite controls after the 2 or three first rounds of any tournament (in the final rounds).

About the power and spin balance, i think the guys which should be looked at are, Nadal, Ferrer, Almagro, Verdasco, Gasquet (especially this BH is disappointing, he should be able to score more clean winners with it) , Roddick ( i feel that he hits faster and flatter shots than this).

Maybe djoko and murray should have a bit less spin, really not sure though.

In a general manner if you want more spin dont hesitate i think to increase power because it's just not translating really in more power than other chars, what has to be found is a realistic ball speed as much as possible. Not comparing raw power stats because it's too much influenced by the spin. what is important is the shots efficiency balance general feel in the end, also depending partly the shot anims.

Tier 1 char in my opinion are actually : Federer , Simon, Djokovic, Davydenko. Maybe murray .. i didnt played much with it i can't say, Nadal : in present setup i don't think so, or a very boring Tier1 not worth to play but to mesmerize your opponent to death, but it's too sad not too be changed

I feel that Federer is over the pack and is an advantage to play with, a big
one if you play vs a Tier2. A not so big advantage agains other Tier1 but still. Federer is really an amazing shotmaker in this roster, especially with the forehand, i think Ugadoulu has a good idea gimping him a bit on backhand consistency.

About Simon though i think if you know how to play a counter properly he's probably the strongest char with such stats, but you should ask some TE veteran to confirm this.

I think the only counter in this roster is pretty strong and should be tuned down, honestly, Simon top spin shots are almost faster balls than some roster char accelerations. also he's really fast and has a very good stamina compared to some other chars. It'smaybe too much for a counter in this roster, he should maybe be balanced with a lower speed like between 70-80% (from kyujji own words when we chatted 60-65% should be enough for a counter, though i feel it's still too slow for Simon wich is pretty fast in reality).

Also he can hit very fast balls even as a counter with standard shots with this 10% spin stat, even with 75% power. And finally he use less stamina than other chars styles, and still has a very good amount of it as a base stat (87).

Djokovic is pretty balanced, maybe giving him a bit less top spin can be a good idea, but then reducing his speed a bit to balance him, it's about how you feel it.

The Heavyweight class : Del Potro, Soderling, Berdych

Well i don't see much interest using Soderling when you can use Del Potro. Same speed, better stamina for Soder, but Del Potro shots for approx same power are way faster due to very low spin (12% vs 35%), and also has better FH/BH consistency, still a good serve (almost equal), so i think he's a better char. Abit disappointing cause i would like to play Soderling but for now he doesnt has much appealin comparison. Maybe increasing his speed to 75% should do the trick, would it be reasonable ?

Just as a small comparison, i feel that Federer is a harder hitter than Soderling in this roster, when playing a matchup, same FH power, but less spin for Federer, and better backhand for federer. Add that 20% slower Soderling.. at same level of play you get easily trashed. Only Del Potro or Berdych power can eventually make for it (but i still dont think so because 20+% speed difference is too much).

Berdych is pretty good alike Del Potro, but 60% speed starts to be too low for me, if he doesnt take control of the point right away, just move him left & right then kill him

At least Berdych has some trade-off with all this power and low spin for fast bombs.

Isner or Tomic are slow and doesnt have much trade off, Isner is weaker than lot of chars in the roster in the power, consistency area, just has a serve but is slow, Tomic has good all around abilities, but the combination of slowness and very poor stamina make him useless in my opinion.


I would rather go for 2 tiers , not three, for this reason,i don"t see why use them, maybe for fun trying to pass thru one or two rounds in a tournament with, since there is still much beginners playing the game, butas soon as people will be a bit more experienced, i think they will become totally worthless. So my opinion is , just drop them, or balance them.

llodra / lopez : well i think i won't ever pick up a char with such a lower consitency (<50%) on any wing (bh or fh), it's too much penalizing in my opinion in TE, as much as the stamina goes a bit down, this leads quickly to ue's. I think one should not go so low on this stat, but thats just me. Still Llodra is very fun to play at the net.

[djarvik]

Good stuff Elias. Thanks. On that note, here is a starting point:


Top 4.

Lets discuss the Roger, Djoko, Nadal and Murray.

Without necessarily making any of them stronger. I rather make them weaker and/or slower....maybe a bit stronger in some areas, if really needed.

So, who do we adjust and how? (try to refrain from exact numbers unless absolutely necessary).

My feeling: Nadal needs a tweak in top spin. How much? Not sure, but a good starting point would be 10 off.

[Otlichno]

The main problem with "spin friendly" players, is they usually have high stamina. Now every-time you desynch, your stamina bar automatically fills up like you've just hit an ace. That pretty much takes away the advantage of stamina.

Also, with Ferrer I can be just as/if not more offensive than Davydenko. The added spin and consistency pretty much means I can go for the most ridiculous of shots and still make them, also, I find the spin makes hitting defensive shots and passing shots much easier, it also keeps the mall moving sideways when I hit an angle making it much more effective. The only problem is, hitting down the line winners becomes much more difficult. That is where the problem of not having individual stats for spin for each stroke is.

[Elias]

To me it is pretty obvious what matters in Tennis Elbow: Good or great strokes (greater or equal to around 80% in every stroke stat), speed and counter stat over 80% and the lower the top spin stat the better. That's the reason why characters with such stats are a good choice (Federer, Davydenko, Djokovic, Simon for example) and that's why I did well with Kohlschreiber. Dolgopolov is better than Nalbandian.

I cannot call a game or a character within the game balanced if the character choice influences the result from losing 2-6 to winning 6-1 (switching from Nalbandian to Federer against Djokovic on Master 1).

I think the game favours certain styles, so that some characters are just useless.

Yes some difference should not being to much important in some stats, the more balanced all around chars with no big flaws will i think prevail, i dont think the extremes are viable (like pretty huge power but very slow), so anyway i think it's difficult to get close to real players and at the same time find a balance in the gameplay, because of the game mechanics, it's not reality but a videogame obviously, so i think some compromise should be made

About power, around 80% doesn't always means an effective shot, especially depending on the spin stat, which is very important regarding the ball speed. Chars with like 75-80% power but a very low spin like 15-20% have very good/fast accelerations (davy, stepanek, dolgo, melzer).

Though i feel like 80% is still enough power to get good accelerations until some spin level. Youhzny for example has 78/79 power, 51 spin, and his winner ability is still decent, (a bit like djokovic, nole still better on BH wing), those accels are still slower than the flat hitters ones, but the balance is still ok with the advantage you can get from the spin, trajectory, height.. better crosses.

Though if you go up on the spin, like 60% or more, the 80% power even sometimes more, doesnt feel enough ,i'm thinking to Gasquet for example wich has around 80/65 power/spin, ferrer, verdasco etc.

So i think we shouldn't to much judge chars with the raw power stats, but more the shots efficiency, knowing that a char with 65% spin and 92% power will anyway never hit shots as fast as said.. del potro with his 12% spin.

It's difficult to choose if those char should have a reduced spin to get them a bit more winner friendly in TE and balanced, but maybe less close from the real players. I think if the spin stays like it is, their power should be raised; at least on their best wing.

The main problem with "spin friendly" players, is they usually have high stamina. Now every-time you desynch, your stamina bar automatically fills up like you've just hit an ace. That pretty much takes away the advantage of stamina.

Also, with Ferrer I can be just as/if not more offensive than Davydenko. The added spin and consistency pretty much means I can go for the most ridiculous of shots and still make them, also, I find the spin makes hitting defensive shots and passing shots much easier, it also keeps the mall moving sideways when I hit an angle making it much more effective. The only problem is, hitting down the line winners becomes much more difficult. That is where the problem of not having individual stats for spin for each stroke is.

True about desyncs actually destroying the whole purpose of stamina mangement..

About individual stat spins for each stroke / wing, it should be a great enhancement to TE i agree, i don't know if this has already being suggested to ManuToo, but one should suggest it in this thread : http://www.managames.com/Forum/topic15- ... ?start=435

.

[manutoo]

Right.. you can't do much more with Nalby vs Djoko as 20% difference of speed is too important.. and though Nalbandian is not even the worst char in the roster.

Elias is right, here a few numbers to show that :
100% speed => top speed = 29km/h ; and the run acceleration is above the best tennis players ; real tennis players might be able to go above 29km/h, though, but only on very rare occasions, and the extra acceleration more than compensate that
0% speed => top speed = 21km/h ; this is quite low, any good amateur player might be able to beat that (on a tennis court holding a racket ; of course, on a run field, all decent Sunday-amateur athlete should beat that ) ; run acceleration is rubbish
50% speed => top speed = 25km/h ; it's still quite low for a top professional player, especially with the run acceleration still being not great

My take is that all top #100 real players speed % are likely within 70-90% range. And don't forget that tall players run acceleration is a bit lower (but not the max run speed), so they get a bit disadvantaged from that.

[eliomelma]

I have tried the younger players of roster:
Raonic: i think that will raised consistency of at least forehand , for give him chance to hit winners and raise his speed a bit, he is very low
Dolgopolov Raise the 2 wings consistency, so he can hit winners because against strong players as Federer there is non chance with him to close the point soon.
Dimitrov he is better than the previous but i think that a bit add on forehand will be good, many players could choose him.

At both i think that a bit more stamina will be right.

In previous post you talk about Nadal's spin and winner ability, i think that is right, we must decrease spin and raise the ability to hit winner,but with care, if we make mistake,it can become too strong and unbeatable.
Simon and Davidenko must surely be weakened (lowered) as the Federer's backhand.
Gulbis: I think that the most important thing is that his his hair must be lengthened, his power originates from his hair as Samson..ahhhhhhh.Joking apart, the wings consistency and precision must be a bit raised above all forehand.
Those changes are for give at all the guys the chance to choose many more players.