Top Spin 4 - Player Balancing Updates

[SundanceKid]

Hi Rocket, good to see you

You're right. S&V players won't have any chance surving on the tour without their best weapon. The service.

But otherwise look at the real tour. Is there any pure S&V player yet?
I don't think so. Maybe Patrick Rafter was the last one. But if you play Rafter now in TS4, you can beat him with a baseliner very easily without any problems.
His groundstrokes are simply too weak. And he often cannot make the killing volley at the net. So the baseliner will survive too often.

Maybe S&V players die out and we have to accept this.

But but but but........:
Every professional tennis player is able to hit one volley at the net to make the point after getting his opponent into defense.
Just one volley to make the rally shorter.

But this situation is often impossible in TS4.
You cannot attack the net for only one deciding volley or as a surprise.
Not to mention serve and volley.
If you see 39-45 volley skill at your opponent, you can be sure netplay won't any option for him. Not as a surprise either. He always has to be afraid of playing a very weak volley, so his opponent would be able to come back into the rally.

If Nadal, Djokovic or Federer dominate a rally, they often finish it at the net with a very easy volley.
Sadly this isn't really an option here in TS4!

Yesterday i used a pure netplayer for fun. I wasn't able to finish the rally at the net too often. And i could not reach the net, when my opponent was on serve.
If i want reach the net, i should get it. Never mind if it's well approached or just desperation!

I want control about my player. And that completly!

But it's really nice to see, that 2K is aming to do some improvements.
Hope, they'll find a good solution for all kind of players.

[Hollaa Itz Mike]

i want u guys to look at the rankings of the ATP tour....

how many serve and volley players do you see....

all this talk about powerful baseline players being too good is ridiculous...before using the setup thati have now, i used a different setup and beat players who were using the TI/MD setup....

and rockets i understand, but u also understand that it wasnt fun at all to play against u, with S and volley in this game, u either hit a volley winner on ur first shot or i hit a return winner

it would be a lot more fun if we had rallies

[Rocketsfall]

i want u guys to look at the rankings of the ATP tour....

how many serve and volley players do you see....

all this talk about powerful baseline players being too good is ridiculous...before using the setup thati have now, i used a different setup and beat players who were using the TI/MD setup....

and rockets i understand, but u also understand that it wasnt fun at all to play against u, with S and volley in this game, u either hit a volley winner on ur first shot or i hit a return winner

it would be a lot more fun if we had rallies

I agree, there are hardly any s&v players left on the real tour. But I don't see the relevance in this discussion. My point is that they made something weaker that was already quite weak.

Just wondering, if you could beat the TI/MD setup, then why did you start using it yourself?

"Fun" is something highly subjective. I just happen to like having an efficient serve and the ability to play s&v.

BTW, I just made an offensive baseliner, but without TI/MD.

[AUSSIE_FABS]

If you notice that they do a certain shot when sliced you can run in and slice but like 25% of time the guy will somehow get the ball :s and hit it 1mm from ground or something. Lag makes it worse as lag make vollies very difficult and how the player isn't where they appear but that just means have to be ready all time even if hit into open court lol.

Also sv are best players tl face, unless of course they hit like 70 aces but the people who didn't perfect the serve were great fun to play with variety. Never lost to one and I can see it jsut so hard by sv to win anything.

[venom400]

All im reading is , "sinve i canot get Countless free points off my serve and have to actually build points im losing .

Watch the pros man a lot of points are played , there are very little aces on a 3 setter , pne thing that is true and that it is absent from the game is the countless unforced errors that come from a a well placed kick serve , basicly anything that lands near the player is returned and that is not realistic

If that is what you are reading, then I am not expressing myself correctly.
S&V already was the weakest play style, now it has become even weaker since serving has become more difficult and less effective. And that's even regardless the SSB skill.
Yes, keeping the points shorts, getting free points off the serve is also a way of playing tennis.

Damn, this almost makes me want to make an offensive baseliner.

EDIT: Just played my itst match with Hollaa itz Mike. Same story. They f*cked it up even more than I thought. Why would I, as a S&V'er who already uses the weakest play style, start this game from scratch while the TI/MD players can just go on with their totally overpowered setups? I quit the match being 6-2 6-0 down. Sorry Mike, nothing personal.
I'm not going to S&V anymore until the game really is balanced.

Serve and volley is alive and well , I have an all rounder player , and the trick is to keep your opponent guessing .

Basicly I succesfully serve and volleyed last night after the patch by hitting a vararity of serves , I hit some kickers to the persons's backhand , some flat to the forehand , some slicers , some slow , some fast , etc... the real strenght of serve and volley in RL is to start the game at the net , altough I don't think the serve is the problem for a true serve and volley player , it is the fact that there is no errors or very few (actually I do see more errors forced when you are volleying at the net from your oponent ) but the fact that someone can just flicker a button and pass you is bs , however saying that serve and volley is dead is not true , serve and volley is the hardest game style in real life , many pros are failing at it and even at the pre-open you don't see it a lot anymore .

My suggestion to you is , yes keep serve and volleying but be smarter about it because the ball will come back this time , serve and volley high balls , but now people are going to slice it low , which is fine ,just move in and swing at it again and then move in at the net , another thing I do is I do a slow serve , (once in a while not all the time ) kick serve meaning serve with the buttons , this gives you plenty of time to move in to the net and give them hell .

The trick to volleying right now is the element of surprise , I still win an average of 10 points at the net on world tour games unless the oponent is extremely fast in reflexes but I still get at least 5 .

edit:use kick serve as it makes the return sit high .

My player has 67 in volley with volley artist .

[a11ure]

FYI - the last night update that you guys received was not a patch.

What you have downloaded is Player Balancing Update.

2K will be releasing these from time to time to constantly balance the game. There will be more. They will be monitoring this thread and will try and come up with solutions for Balancing Issues. Remember, taking care of one balancing issue may create another. So this is a "process" a journey and not a "final destination".

Patch is a separate update that is nearing its completion and will be released separately, along with notes on updated features.

I am speaking on behalf on 2K. They gave me a courtesy of "heads up" and as a token, I would appreciate if you can refrain from bashing the developer on our Boards. They have been very responsive to us and I would like to keep it this way. As always, all constructive suggestions and requests are more then welcomed.

Any form of complaints about TS4 will be deleted.

Use this thread to discuss this and future Player Balancing Updates ONLY.

Thank you,

AL

Are you sure there will be a patch forthcoming? If so could you provide any details as to the changes

[djarvik]

I can only comment on what I was told. I was told the patch is coming, soon.

Exactly what will be patched will be made public upon release.

[a11ure]

I can only comment on what I was told. I was told the patch is coming, soon.

Exactly what will be patched will be made public upon release.

Much appreciated

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

2nd batch of complaints

Return of serve
Make returning harder. Reflex should be the primary factor, with the strokes (fh/bh) being secondary, in determining how good a character's return is. Right now everyone can return very easily, regardless of how low their reflex is. Skills like Diesel returner, and return serve counter are also made useless because of this. Everyone right now, regardless of how low their reflex is, is a diesel returner. Characters with low reflex should hit a lot of unreturns (errors), floaty returns that are easy to put away, stagger more off the return giving them less time to chase the next ball down, and should not be able to attack their opponents serve unless their opponent has a VERY low serve rating. Right now there is no reason to be a decent returner. Character with 80fh 70bh 50rf can return as well as characters with 79fh 62bh 73rf. This is a problem.

On the run shots
When a character makes a shot on the run, their accuracy should decrease. There should be more chance for error, especially when they are going for a powered up on the run shot.

Times when the attacker clearly should win the point
Right now people can hit winners when they are on the run and at a full stretch, practically almost diving for the ball. There are times when a rally should really be over, but that is not the case in TS4. When someone is on the full run, and reaching for the ball, their next shot should be weak and floaty, or go out. Not fast and angled pulling me 20ft off the court. You go from being the attacker to losing the point instantly. There should be a great decrease in accuracy, effectiveness of the ball hit, and more errors. There should also be a lot of recovery when on the run and stretching for the ball, depending on the character's speed rating and how much stamina they have at that time.

Skill explaination
Could you plz explain what highly flammable does/means: "You're on fire when on a 4 point (or more) winning streak during a set".

Skills that need need tweaking
1) Return serve counter: this skills works everynow and then. Even if you have the timing of your opponents flat serve down, you'll only hit a good return once every blue moon. Once you have a good returner, this skill should work more often than not.

2)Topspin/Slice invasion: Their effectiveness needs to be toned down. It's too easy to hit the lines (all the time), and control rallies with these two skills because of how accurate, precise, and effective your shots (topspin/slice) become. If anything, they should make your topspin/slice shots less prone to error even during tough situations. Such as:
-Being on the run with low stamina
-When you have less stamina in general your topspin/slice shots would have the highest chance of going in
-When you get a "too late" your slice/topspin will go in more often than someone who doesn't have them, etc.
They should make your topspin/slices less prone to error, and not improve them like they do now. You shouldn't get more precise, accurate, or effective. You should just make less errors when you use those shots.

3)Monster Defense: This skill, with anything, is too good, and needs a huge nerf.

[djarvik]

Power game
Right now it's very easy to just camp at the baseline and blast powerful shot after powerful shot and be successful. There should be more errors produced from charged up shots, flat or topspin. The more power in the shot, the higher chance of error.

I disagree with this one. In fact, I have made a power basliner just to see if my suspicions are right. It is not effective enough.

I am not talking about 100 Power freaks, but rather a 80s power.

My guy has 83 power 88FH and 58BH, he should be able to be a little bit more effective with his Flat shots, but he is not.

Power Baseliners that are slow were the easiest to beat for me. Just too easy to angle them off the court and get that short ball to put away.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

I disagree with this one. In fact, I have made a power basliner just to see if my suspicions are right. It is not effective enough.

I am not talking about 100 Power freaks, but rather a 80s power.

My guy has 83 power 88FH and 58BH, he should be able to be a little bit more effective with his Flat shots, but he is not.

Power Baseliners that are slow were the easiest to beat for me. Just too easy to angle them off the court and get that short ball to put away.

Yeah I can see what you mean, I'll take it out now I think about it. If they tweak speed and stamina, then power players will be hampered like they should be, and messing with their power game would make them only weaker and obsolete.

Lol, I forgot to add monster defense to a skill that needs tweaking. Also edited topspin/slice invasion.

[djarvik]

Yeah, Power Baseline is a viable style and is heavily depends on short points and control. Right now, it is not working good enough. It does work sure, but not enough. Meaning if you actually create a SIM like basleiner and not a 100 power one.

Too many times my perfectly timed lat shots lack power and penetration and too many times they are coming back with short top spins out of nowhere.

I don't think we need to touch that just yet. Working on other issues may correct this problem. Just like you said.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

Lol, forgot what I wanted to really say for topspin/slice invasion.
If anything, they should make your topspin/slice shots less prone to error even during tough situations:
on the run with low stamina, when you have less stamina in general your topspin/slice would have the highest chance of going in, going for the lines, when you get a "too late" your slice/topspin will go in more often than someone who doesn't have them, etc.
They should make your topspin/slices less prone to error, and not improve them like they do now. You shouldn't get more precise, accurate, or effective. You should just make less errors when you use those shots.

Edited

[Oscarzero]

I honestly don't think the return has to be tweaked. May be I am not good enough but I never managed to return that well and become a diesel returner...It's already very very hard to break one's serve and I really don't want to play tie-break in every match.

[stoutman111]

REALLY . More to come? Nice, I can't wait.

Some problems I'm having so far.

Stamina
It doesn't seem to have that much of an effect right now. People with 0 stamina can still run from end to end without any reprecussions, and make zero errors. The decrease in speed as your stamina depletes should be more obvious, and more errors should start creeping in. Their accuracy, serving and strokes, should also decrease as well.

Speed
People with low speed, 40/50, are too fast. They shouldn't be able to move as quickly as they do.

Timing on shots
I was wondering if there could also be more errors produced on "too late" shots.

Coach
The coach Pei Jing Quah is too good right now. Monster Defense and Topspin Invasion are 2 skills that should not be included together. The advantage she gives over the other coaches is too much. Her point distribution is also a bit too much and too good.

Precision topspin shots
The ability to pull your opponent outwide with precision topspin shots is a bit overkill. Could the angle on these shots be toned down. Most times rallies come down to "who can pull the other out wide more".

Flat shots, precision or charged
More errors on flat shots plz, especially fully charged flat shots.

Slicing
Slicing is too good. Tone down the effectiveness. Players should not be able to rally with slices and win rallies with slicing only. Add more errors in slicing as well. You can be too accurate and go on the offensive with them. They can be used for offense, but they are mostly for defense. Sliced balls should mainly be floaty, and give you time to recover. Your opponent should also be able to punish your slices more easily as well. Maybe add a bit more accuracy to a sliced ball that is hit back, like how inside out add a bit more accuracy and power to you shots, so that people stop trying to rally with slices only.

That's all I can remember for now

BINGO! we have a winner.... 2k look at this and implement please